PunBB

It's all a moot point anyway, because the Rangers are taking it all this year. Okay, probably not. Can we avenge the the Slugs in the playoffs this year anyway?

cferneyh Wrote:

tth_fan Wrote:It is supposed to be a post, not a chapter.

Next time I'll include pictures and diagrams so that you can keep up.

Looks like you have a lot of time on your hands to do that type of thing...so have at her! Whatever makes you feel more important than you actually are! :lol:

tth_fan Wrote:

cferneyh Wrote:

tth_fan Wrote:It is supposed to be a post, not a chapter.

Next time I'll include pictures and diagrams so that you can keep up.

Looks like you have a lot of time on your hands to do that type of thing...so have at her! Whatever makes you feel more important than you actually are! :lol:

It takes a big man to admit he has a tough time keeping up. Good work, big guy!

cferneyh Wrote:

tth_fan Wrote:

cferneyh Wrote:

tth_fan Wrote:It is supposed to be a post, not a chapter.

Next time I'll include pictures and diagrams so that you can keep up.

Looks like you have a lot of time on your hands to do that type of thing...so have at her! Whatever makes you feel more important than you actually are! :lol:

It takes a big man to admit he has a tough time keeping up. Good work, big guy!

whew...I'm glad you feel bigger now. Congrats.

Now for a real NHL post (for an NHL topic...imagine that), I'm gonna be glad when they switch up the schedule so we don't have to see inter-divisional matchups every second game. Don't get me wrong, I love watching a good Sens/Habs or Buffalo/Habs game...just not 8 times a year. I would love to see them play the Canucks or the Wings now & then...

LizardKing51 Wrote:..at least we have some real dialogue going on, rather than the Led Zeppelin sucks ....

Yup.

LizardKing51 Wrote:GO HABS GO!!

Apparently not.

Chapter Five: Intense Hipbase Drama

cferneyh Wrote:

das_hips Wrote:That's a nice salary number; I saw it myself, and have to applaud the writer for their constructive creativity. That '$32.5 million' includes the player options for 09/10, 10/11, and 11/12. Let's re-work that salary number for the eight years. If you don't believe me, feel free to look it up yourself,

The three $3.8 million options that he has are not factored into the 5 year $32.5 million deal that he signed.

I apoligize. I gathered my numbers from a website that listed the year-by-year impact on the salary cap. Either way, Daniel Alfredsson is making $4.76 million this year.

das_hips Wrote:unless you have come to conclude that there is some sort of statistical reason why his $4.7M salary this year, the three years prior, and his $5.47M salary next year equals $32.5M.

cferneyh Wrote:Easy: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=78230&hubname=">http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=78230&hubname=</a><!-- m -->

Contract terms weren't divulged, but an anonymous source told The Canadian Press the contract is a five-year deal worth $32.5-million US, which includes a $7.5-million bonus. The agreement also includes three option years and the full eight years would be worth $48 million plus performance bonuses.

das_hips Wrote:It's great that Iginla has had such an impressive career, but again, your $6.5 million quotation is wrong. It just is.

Actually, it's 100% correct. See above.

I suppose his $7.5 million bonus in 2004 is relevant. This year, however, Daniel Alfredsson is making $4.76 million.

das_hips Wrote:Also, as you have provided a player who you deem is appropriate for comparison, please look at the numbers once more.

Since 2000-2001
Alfredsson: 475 GP, 208G, 308A, 516P, 120+/-
Iginla: 488 GP, 245G, 250A, 495P, 61+/- ...

cferneyh Wrote:Are you seriously going to suggest that the talent Iginla has been surrounded up until recently was anything close to who Alfredsson has had as teammates. Seriously?!? Even during their Stanley Cup run, the Flames were Iginla, Kipper, and a bunch of 3rd liners masquerading as 1st and 2nd liners. Why, Craig Conroy was such a bust in LA that they couldn't send him back to Calgary fast enough. Look at what playing with Iginla has done to Langkow's numbers. How about Huselius' numbers? These are guys who did nothing elsewhere, yet look at them now.

And I really hope that you aren't comparing an over the hill Gary Roberts, an over the hill Steve Thomas and a Why Is He In The NHL Jonas Hoglund to Martin Havlat and/or Marian Hossa. Alfredsson has had a ton more talent surrounding him, and I simply don't see how any rational person could argue otherwise.

Havlat, and Hossa are both incredibly gifted players. However, you neglected to read, or to witness the presence of those players on the Ottawa Senators. Alfredsson may have shared power-play time with those individuals, but was rarely, if ever, on a line with the top talent in the organization, as all three are right-wing forwards. Like I mentioned earlier, Alfredsson has often been billed on the second line, or on a diluted first line, and until mid-season last year, had done so for most of his career in Ottawa. Whatever line Alfredsson had been put on was generally composed of legitimate 20 goal-scorers, certainly no different than the talent Iginla has worked with (with the exception of the last 18 months). If you want to argue that Ottawa has been a more offensively gifted team in the last seven or eight years, I won't argue with that; I will argue, however, that Alfredsson hasn't always been on a bread-winning line like he is now, and his numbers have been quite comparable to that of Sundin, or Iginla.

das_hips Wrote:Pretending for a moment that the NHLPA wasn't expecting the salary cap to increase (which they were, and argued with that presumption against the cap in the first place), either Alfredsson's agent is retarded, or Alfredsson just took a relatively safe, and financially rewarding long-term contract. I don't know any NHLPA lawyers, or agents, but I assume they're not retarded.

cferneyh Wrote:Or his agent simply misread the marketplace, just like a bunch of agents misread the marketplace the first year of the new CBA (i.e. Chris Pronger gets paid less than Bryan McCabe - now please excuse me while I go throw up).

Or Alfredsson didn't realize his production was about to increase. Oh wait....

If I knew I was going to play this way I probably wouldn't have signed a five-year deal, maybe. But that's the way it goes. When this deal is up, we'll see what happens.

Taken from here.

das_hips Wrote:And regarding the line combinations, clearly having Spezza, and especially Heatley on the line has helped Alfredsson, but you're ignoring the implication that he has made them better players as well. You're also ignoring the fact that Alfredsson played only a little more than half the year with that crowd last year, virtually none the year before, and neither were present before that.

cferneyh Wrote:Well, in Heatley's last full season in Atlanta he scored 41 goals and had 89 points, in the "dead-puck" era, as a 22 year old. So I'd argue his numbers are a natural progression. And during the lockout, Spezza led the AHL in points, so it's pretty clear he was well on his way to being a bonafide NHLer. And you've helped my argument by pointing out that when those guys weren't around, Alfredsson's production was significantly lower.

Not really. You mentioned the man himself, and while he did wonderful things for this team, it is no secret that Jacques Martin played a more defensively sound game. You eluded to that yourself. And while Heatley's numbers have improved, and Spezza came to be a predominant forward in the leauge, you just argued that Alfredsson's success was based on the talent that surrounded him in Havlat, and Hossa. I'm not sure how you can argue both sides.

das_hips Wrote:You can try and shit on Alfie as much as you would like to.

cferneyh Wrote:Just to be clear here, I'm not shitting on Alfie at all. For the most part he doesn't annoy me like he used to, and yeah, I agree with you 100% that he's a steal at his current salary (he makes less than Jason Blake this season. Now I have to go throw up again).

What I took issue with was you assertion that he took less than the market rate to play in Ottawa. He didn't. He signed a contract that was totally indicative of his production at that time, and it now looks like a great deal for the Sens, but only because of the 24% rollback.

I suppose this is open to intrepretation, really. Reaslistically, with the publically disclosed understanding (or assumption) that the cap was going to rise as the NHL seasons passed, I tend to conlcude in which I already wrote. Is it beyond comprehension that an NHL player would take a financially sound contract (5-8 years at that. How many players did the same that year, or have done so since?) even though he likely, very likely could have secured more income elsewhere. Alfredsson was a point a game player before the contract, no different than a dozen all-star material forwards who took short-term contracts for more that year, or during the lockout.

That Ottawa Sun article was a good read. I hadn't read that before, but to provide that

cferneyh Wrote:So Alfie admits he f*cked up, but to his credit, is living by it.

should probably be broadcast as "Aflie knows he good probably be making more elsewhere, but won't do anything about it because he is a character player, and has publically stated numerous times he wished to finish his career in Ottawa".

His salary aside, I was, in jest, suggesting that Alfredsson was a better captain than Sundin. If you don't agree, that's completely fine. It's beyond salary, and beyond line-mates. It's about nightly effort, team motivation, and playing smart. Even as those are all subjective, I stand exactly where I stood three days ago. Daniel Alfredsson is an incredible player, and a phenominal captain for this hockey team.

das_hips Wrote:This year, however, Daniel Alfredsson is making $4.76 million.

Correct. However, that isn't the issue that we are debating. You suggested that he took less to stay in Ottawa. I pointed out that the contract he signed (which, when averaged out, equaled $6.5 million per season) was the going rate for what he had done to that point in his career. In fact, he acknowledged it when he himself said that had he known he'd be putting up the numbers he is now, he likely wouldn't have signed a 5 year deal.

das_hips Wrote:Not really. You mentioned the man himself, and while he did wonderful things for this team, it is no secret that Jacques Martin played a more defensively sound game. You eluded to that yourself. And while Heatley's numbers have improved, and Spezza came to be a predominant forward in the leauge, you just argued that Alfredsson's success was based on the talent that surrounded him in Havlat, and Hossa. I'm not sure how you can argue both sides.

Arguing both sides? Hardly. Spezza and Heatley are better than Hossa and Havlat, but all four are great players. And Iginla, nor Sundin, have had anyone like those four as linemates (or even teammates). Particularly at the point of their respective careers that they were all at. I suppose you could suggest that Mogilny was just as talented, but he was largely injured during his time in Toronto (with the exception of 02/03) and by that point of his career he was 34. That's a tad different from having a 25 year old Marian Hossa.

And while you can argue that Alfie didn't have those guys on his lines in regular shifts, the fact of the matter is that having that kind of depth means that other teams can't focus their defensive specialists or their best d-men on one line (like they can - and have always done - with Sundin, and Iginla).

das_hips Wrote:Is it beyond comprehension that an NHL player would take a financially sound contract (5-8 years at that. How many players did the same that year, or have done so since?)

Brad Richards
Martin St. Louis
Chris Pronger
Scott Niedermayer
Joe Thornton
Martin Brodeur

And that's just off the top of my head, and doesn't count the long term deals that guys like Gomez, Drury, and Briere signed this year. Each one of the players I listed above - perhaps with the exception of Brodeur who always seems to sign below market rates - signed deals that were long term and were the going rate at that time, and would in all likelihood would be making more if they signed shorter deals and jumped at UFA status as quickly as they could. I remember scoffing when Niedermayer signed out of the lockout for $6.75 million per. I thought that was way too much. But look at the list of guys making more than him now (if he was playing) - Bryan Frickin McCabe, Kimmo Timonen, Ed Jovanovski, Zdeno Chara. Doesn't that drive home the concept of going market rate for you?!? And, to reiterate the point, Alfie has himself admitted that based on today's market rates, he is underpaid, and he shouldn't have signed that deal, but he did and he'll live by it.

das_hips Wrote:His salary aside, I was, in jest, suggesting that Alfredsson was a better captain than Sundin. If you don't agree, that's completely fine.

Well, of course I don't agree, but that's largely a subjective measure and I'm not going to debate that with you, because it is completely fruitless. What I took issue with was your assertion that he signed for less than the going rate because he wanted to stay in Ottawa. I feel that I've aptly demonstrated that he did not, and I think that you agree when your best comeback to that point is what his salary is this season (which, of course, doesn't factor in the signing bonus, nor the 24% rollback, so it makes the 07/08 number look a lot better than the averaged amout of $6.5 million).

Also, I think it is kind of funny that you think Alfie's deal was all about doing what he could to stay when he structured his deal to get a $7.5 million signing bonus, mere months before the lockout. Seems to me that someone (or someone's agent) was expecting salaries to drop, or plateau, with the new CBA and as such made sure he got as much up front as he could. Funny that.

Coles notes for tth_fan:

das_hips: me think Alfie took less than he could of.
cferneyh: me no agree

cferneyh Wrote:das_hips: me think Alfie took less than he could of.
cferneyh: me no agree

That's all I read, and that's all I needed to know. Easier than reading some of the verbal diahrea written there.

skippy, remotely Wrote:

LizardKing51 Wrote:GO HABS GO!!

Apparently not.

Looks like our scoring woes from last year havent gone away. In five on five we just cant get it done on a consistent basis, it doesnt help when the guy who supposed to be our leading scorer only has 3 goals, but this team needs a consistent goalscorer, if he doesnt pick it up I think a trade is in order or were going nowhere fast.

I don't think the Habs have had a real scoring ace since Guy Lafleur. The two Cup wins since were with low-scoring teams that had excellent defence, power play and penalty killing. Not to mention a Roy-calibre goalie.

In '86, if a penalty was called against the Habs, you'd be thinking of it as an opportunity to score short-handed.

Given the lack of a goal scorer that's the formula Carbo has to work on. But only the power play is really clicking so far.

skippy, remotely Wrote:I don't think the Habs have had a real scoring ace since Guy Lafleur.

true, Richer got 50 twice and Damphousse got 40 twice, but no-one really has been a consistent goal threat for us for a number of years. We really need a Dany Heatley, Kovalchuk type guy who is always a threat to score and puts up the points every year. Our special teams are great which is good especially with all the wimpy calls in the new NHL, but thats only a part of the game. Ryder has to go imo, package him up and ship him out, I think there waiting for him to actually get going so he might be worth more than a 4th round pick like he is right now. Its been a long time since the Habs put a full consistent season together, we usually start falling apart around Dec-Jan. and spend all of March/April trying to recover from it and scrape into the playoffs, Im getting tired of it. I want us to go in the playoffs in a strong position for a change and and get some experience for the younger players and start to show some winning attitude. Then hopefully some decent free agents will want to come in the next couple years, we have a solid young foundation to build around..Price, Pleckanec, Komisarek..etc.. I think we have a good chance to be a very good team in the next few years if we can just get the players to want to play there. Clearly the ownership isnt shy about spending the cash, they offered more to Smyth and Briere this year, just have to convince them its a good place to play, and we need to be in the playoffs every year to do that, there's the problem.

But you gotta have hope, right cfern! :thumb:

it's a pretty good team .

sorry if this is old news, but you can now watch hnic on cbc.ca :rambo:

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LizardKing51 Wrote:But you gotta have hope, right cfern! :thumb:

Ya gotta. But, the Leafs officially beat whatever hope I had left for this season out of me tonight. After the nice 3-0 win over Ottawa last week I was hoping they could build on that this week, rather than throwing up three losses including stinkers against Boston and Phoenix. I just don't get how they can put up a good effort against Dallas, and then look like an AHL team against Phoenix less than 24 hours later.

With 2 goals this season, none in 16 games, and an awesome shooting percentage of 2%, I really hope Jason Blake is returning money to MLSE.

Dear Paul Maurice.......why, why, WHY do you insist on throwing Raycroft out there? Why? The only reason Toskala should not be playing is if he can't find his skates. WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED?!?

Sincerely,

Justin Pogge

cferneyh Wrote:

LizardKing51 Wrote:But you gotta have hope, right cfern! :thumb:

Ya gotta. But, the Leafs officially beat whatever hope I had left for this season out of me tonight.

Ya know, I was just coming on to post a similar response................

My blood has run blue since the first day I watched a Leafs game with my father, many, many moons ago. I have watched almost every game I possibly could for over 30 years, cheered them when they playeed well, still cheered them when they played awful. I was right there in 92/93 for the start of the Gilmour era and probably the best hockey I ever watched period, (Leafs vs Detroit in 7, Leafs vs St Louis in 7, Leafs vs L.A and Gretzky's high stick in 7).

This year is the first year where my faith and "there's always next year" attitude is finally faltering.......I never thought that would happen.

Plus is didn't help when my 9 year old daughter came in to see the score of the game last night, and as she walked out of the living room turned to me and said "dad its time to move on to Ottawa"................Not that I could ever do that (if I was to switch to any team), but my blood just doesn't run as blue as it used to after last night.

This year is toast. There is potential of making some major changes and turning it around, but is that really for the best?? It would be the old "trade away our future for results now", which is the exact mentality that has gotten the Leafs into the position they are today. Good enough to almost make the playoffs, yet not a good enough draft postion to get anything valuable. But then agian, we would probably have traded our draft picks away in some deal anyways.

If MLSE finally realizes its time for a fire sale and rebuild this team starting now, I would probably be willing to ride out the next couple years of mediocre hockey. But if they end up trading away or young players once again to bring in vetrans..............well then maybe my 9 year old daughter is right, maybe its time to move on.................maybe not to Ottawa, but there are a few other teams out there..........

And thats all I have to say about that