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das_hips Wrote:and that Alfredsson is a better captain than Sundin (how you doing Cferneyh).

Whoa, easy there. Your love for Ottawa can't make you that stupid, unless shooting a puck full blast at Scott Niedermayer after the whistle sounds is a leadership quality you look for. Obviously I'm an Ottawa fan, and I like Alfredsson, but you're going to have to explain the basis of your judgment for that whopping claim. More points per game in a few seasons does not a better leader make.
cferneyh Wrote:
das_hips Wrote:Can't we all just hate Buffalo?

Sure......but all their fans from last season seem to have disappeared.
I am still here.
Hello? Hello?
I guess I am the only one.
Tthip Wrote:
cferneyh Wrote:
das_hips Wrote:Can't we all just hate Buffalo?

Sure......but all their fans from last season seem to have disappeared.
I am still here.
Hello? Hello?
I guess I am the only one.

The Lonely End Of The Rink indeed...
Tthip Wrote:
cferneyh Wrote:
das_hips Wrote:Can't we all just hate Buffalo?

Sure......but all their fans from last season seem to have disappeared.
I am still here.
Hello? Hello?
I guess I am the only one.

:lol: you weren't obnoxious about their success last year though, that probably makes it a little easier to show your face in this thread.
second_sight_kyle Wrote:
das_hips Wrote:and that Alfredsson is a better captain than Sundin (how you doing Cferneyh).

Whoa, easy there. Your love for Ottawa can't make you that stupid, unless shooting a puck full blast at Scott Niedermayer after the whistle sounds is a leadership quality you look for. Obviously I'm an Ottawa fan, and I like Alfredsson, but you're going to have to explain the basis of your judgment for that whopping claim. More points per game in a few seasons does not a better leader make.

Absolutely. Instigation is a hobby of mine, conflict a drug. There is absolutely no merit to what I wrote, and I understand that. Sundin is also an incredibly gifted hockey player, and a strong leader.

Alfredsson has been involved in some questionable activities in the past (as hundreds of NHL players have, team captain or not), but Alfredsson certainly has always played with a lot of heart, possessed a nearly extinct sense of loyalty, and put up tremendous numbers in the past decade or so (essentially his career in the NHL).

I'm sure many of you don't witness his play on a nightly basis, but he is beyond argument the reason Ottawa did so well last year in the playoff's, and are doing so well again this year. His determination, and hard work are never questioned. Maybe it's still the lingering aroma of horse-shit from the Yashin era, but for him to take a fairly modest pay-cut to sign a long-term contract so he can end his career in Ottawa is certainly a welcome change from the past, and a glaring oddity in professional sports (his $4.8 million salary isn't anything to sneeze at, but I'd say he's the best bang for the buck you'll find in the game of all players who have provided consistent point production)...

... and that's why I have a life-sized depiction of Daniel Alfredsson (from the '04-05 campaign when he had his curly locks) tattooed on my back.
das_hips Wrote:Maybe it's still the lingering aroma of horse-shit from the Yashin era, but for him to take a fairly modest pay-cut to sign a long-term contract so he can end his career in Ottawa is certainly a welcome change from the past, and a glaring oddity in professional sports (his $4.8 million salary isn't anything to sneeze at, but I'd say he's the best bang for the buck you'll find in the game of all players who have provided consistent point production)...

Speaking of horseshit, lets correct a few things here:

(1) When Alfredsson signed his long term contract, it was for five years, for a total of $32.5 million. Average that out, and you get $6.5 million a season.

(2) When Alfredsson signed that deal (in 2004), $7 million was the going rate for guys like Iginla - you know, guys who had scored 50 goals. When Alfie signed that deal, he'd never come close to 50 goals (and still hasn't), and he'd never broken 80 points in a season. So it seems to me that $6.5 million for a guy who - at the time - was a 75-80 point guy, was pretty much the going rate.

(3) Alfie's "pay-cut" was not his doing. It was a result of the new CBA where all contracts in place were rolled back 24%.

(4) Since the 2004 season, his production has picked up. I think there are a lot of factors that have contributed to this - the "new" NHL, the Sens firing Jacques Martin (and dropping Martin's "defense first" approach), and - most importantly - the maturation of Jason Spezza. I'm sure you'll say "but Spezza and Alfie don't always play on the same line", and I'll simply point to tonight's game where both of them had three points......and each of their three points came on the same goals, indicating they are certainly spending some time playing together. And I'm sure we can agree that playing with Jason Spezza - even part time - is a step up from Radek Bonk, or Todd White, or Bryan Smolinski, or whoever else he was saddled with pre-Spezza.

(5) Best bang for the buck? Hardly. Take a look at Zetterberg - he's making $2.4 million this season and next season. There's a guy who needs to fire his agent.
Looks like I missed a fun little argument. Oh well, I've had my share of them in my time. Nothing anyone says, though, will change my mind... I'm a Leaf fan, through and through, in good times and bad (and yes they have mostly been bad in my lifetime, no need to point out the obvious to me), etc. I wish things could be different and that the people in charge of the hockey team could get a clue so they could build a proper team capable of winning the Stanley Cup. But I still cheer for them, that's what being a fan is all about. So let the good-natured joking continue... I'm a man, I can take it... I think...
cferneyh Wrote:
das_hips Wrote:Maybe it's still the lingering aroma of horse-shit from the Yashin era, but for him to take a fairly modest pay-cut to sign a long-term contract so he can end his career in Ottawa is certainly a welcome change from the past, and a glaring oddity in professional sports (his $4.8 million salary isn't anything to sneeze at, but I'd say he's the best bang for the buck you'll find in the game of all players who have provided consistent point production)...

Speaking of horseshit, lets correct a few things here:

cferneyh Wrote:(1) When Alfredsson signed his long term contract, it was for five years, for a total of $32.5 million. Average that out, and you get $6.5 million a season.

That's a nice salary number; I saw it myself, and have to applaud the writer for their constructive creativity. That '$32.5 million' includes the player options for 09/10, 10/11, and 11/12. Let's re-work that salary number for the eight years. If you don't believe me, feel free to look it up yourself, unless you have come to conclude that there is some sort of statistical reason why his $4.7M salary this year, the three years prior, and his $5.47M salary next year equals $32.5M.

cferneyh Wrote:(2) When Alfredsson signed that deal (in 2004), $7 million was the going rate for guys like Iginla - you know, guys who had scored 50 goals. When Alfie signed that deal, he'd never come close to 50 goals (and still hasn't), and he'd never broken 80 points in a season. So it seems to me that $6.5 million for a guy who - at the time - was a 75-80 point guy, was pretty much the going rate.

It's great that Iginla has had such an impressive career, but again, your $6.5 million quotation is wrong. It just is. Also, as you have provided a player who you deem is appropriate for comparison, please look at the numbers once more.

Since 2000-2001
Alfredsson: 475 GP, 208G, 308A, 516P, 120+/-
Iginla: 488 GP, 245G, 250A, 495P, 61+/- ...

Here are Mats stats since then... Alfredsson and Sundin are the same age,
and before you argue Alfredsson has had a better supporting cast, I'll agree with you, but Alfredsson has played a major role on Ottawa's second line most of last year, and didn't generally share a line with Marian Hossa before the arrival of Heatley, or the emergence of Spezza

Sundin: 487 GP, 206G, 277A, 483P, 46+/-

Break that down on salary alone since 2000, and Iginla and Sundin aren't even in the same ball-park as Alfredsson. Again, I'm not going to argue his pay (which you did so unsuccessfully), I'm arguing talent, and I tend to think you under-estimate the kind of dedicated, and loyal player that Alfredsson really is. Here's a test. If the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of Alfredsson is:

A) Boarding Darcy Tucker,
B) Mocking Mats Sundin (his country-man) with the faux-throw of the stick over the boards, or
C) Alfredsson guaranteeing a win,

then you don't know Daniel Alfredsson, and you watch too much Toronto sports media...

cferneyh Wrote:(3) Alfie's "pay-cut" was not his doing. It was a result of the new CBA where all contracts in place were rolled back 24%.
Pretending for a moment that the NHLPA wasn't expecting the salary cap to increase (which they were, and argued with that presumption against the cap in the first place), either Alfredsson's agent is retarded, or Alfredsson just took a relatively safe, and financially rewarding long-term contract. I don't know any NHLPA lawyers, or agents, but I assume they're not retarded.

cferneyh Wrote:(4) Since the 2004 season, his production has picked up. I think there are a lot of factors that have contributed to this - the "new" NHL, the Sens firing Jacques Martin (and dropping Martin's "defense first" approach), and - most importantly - the maturation of Jason Spezza. I'm sure you'll say "but Spezza and Alfie don't always play on the same line", and I'll simply point to tonight's game where both of them had three points......and each of their three points came on the same goals, indicating they are certainly spending some time playing together. And I'm sure we can agree that playing with Jason Spezza - even part time - is a step up from Radek Bonk, or Todd White, or Bryan Smolinski, or whoever else he was saddled with pre-Spezza.

I'm not going to argue with you over the Jaques Martin era. That was clearly a different team, if not only by personnel, but by approach. They were a lower scoring team then, without a doubt. But Alfredsson was still a point+/game player in that era, and the "new NHL", or change on the bench has opened him up even more. And regarding the line combinations, clearly having Spezza, and especially Heatley on the line has helped Alfredsson, but you're ignoring the implication that he has made them better players as well. You're also ignoring the fact that Alfredsson played only a little more than half the year with that crowd last year, virtually none the year before, and neither were present before that.

cferneyh Wrote:(5) Best bang for the buck? Hardly. Take a look at Zetterberg - he's making $2.4 million this season and next season. There's a guy who needs to fire his agent.

I was unaware of his salary. I'll give you that one, because that definitely is a steal.

I welcome you to actually watch a Senators' game, and find an instance where the announcer, home or away, doesn't describe Alfredsson as the most dominant player on the ice. And just 58 weeks ago, the media, and the impatient, and the fickle all screamed, city-wide "Alfie's got to go"... for Conroy...

You can try and shit on Alfie as much as you would like to. It doesn't matter to me. I know he is a phenominal player, who gives his all, and does his best every game to win that game. He is a better player than Spezza, and Heatley. His time-on-ice is nearly tops in the league, and he is one of the predominant reasons why Ottawa's penalty killing is stellar, and has the most short-handed goals in the leauge (two years running). I don't have a bad thing to say about Mats. Oh, and that Olympic Gold where Mats was captain? Alfredsson had more points.
Does anyone ever feel that you're being lied to?
everytime i hear people harp on about the Sens :lol:
das_hips Wrote:That's a nice salary number; I saw it myself, and have to applaud the writer for their constructive creativity. That '$32.5 million' includes the player options for 09/10, 10/11, and 11/12. Let's re-work that salary number for the eight years. If you don't believe me, feel free to look it up yourself,

The three $3.8 million options that he has are not factored into the 5 year $32.5 million deal that he signed.

das_hips Wrote:unless you have come to conclude that there is some sort of statistical reason why his $4.7M salary this year, the three years prior, and his $5.47M salary next year equals $32.5M.

Easy: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=78230&hubname=">http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=78230&hubname=</a><!-- m -->

Contract terms weren't divulged, but an anonymous source told The Canadian Press the contract is a five-year deal worth $32.5-million US, which includes a $7.5-million bonus. The agreement also includes three option years and the full eight years would be worth $48 million plus performance bonuses.

das_hips Wrote:It's great that Iginla has had such an impressive career, but again, your $6.5 million quotation is wrong. It just is.

Actually, it's 100% correct. See above.

das_hips Wrote:Also, as you have provided a player who you deem is appropriate for comparison, please look at the numbers once more.

Since 2000-2001
Alfredsson: 475 GP, 208G, 308A, 516P, 120+/-
Iginla: 488 GP, 245G, 250A, 495P, 61+/- ...

Are you seriously going to suggest that the talent Iginla has been surrounded up until recently was anything close to who Alfredsson has had as teammates. Seriously?!? Even during their Stanley Cup run, the Flames were Iginla, Kipper, and a bunch of 3rd liners masquerading as 1st and 2nd liners. Why, Craig Conroy was such a bust in LA that they couldn't send him back to Calgary fast enough. Look at what playing with Iginla has done to Langkow's numbers. How about Huselius' numbers? These are guys who did nothing elsewhere, yet look at them now.

And I really hope that you aren't comparing an over the hill Gary Roberts, an over the hill Steve Thomas and a Why Is He In The NHL Jonas Hoglund to Martin Havlat and/or Marian Hossa. Alfredsson has had a ton more talent surrounding him, and I simply don't see how any rational person could argue otherwise.

das_hips Wrote:Pretending for a moment that the NHLPA wasn't expecting the salary cap to increase (which they were, and argued with that presumption against the cap in the first place), either Alfredsson's agent is retarded, or Alfredsson just took a relatively safe, and financially rewarding long-term contract. I don't know any NHLPA lawyers, or agents, but I assume they're not retarded.

Or his agent simply misread the marketplace, just like a bunch of agents misread the marketplace the first year of the new CBA (i.e. Chris Pronger gets paid less than Bryan McCabe - now please excuse me while I go throw up).

Or Alfredsson didn't realize his production was about to increase. Oh wait....

If I knew I was going to play this way I probably wouldn't have signed a five-year deal, maybe. But that's the way it goes. When this deal is up, we'll see what happens.

Taken from here.

So Alfie admits he f*cked up, but to his credit, is living by it.

das_hips Wrote:And regarding the line combinations, clearly having Spezza, and especially Heatley on the line has helped Alfredsson, but you're ignoring the implication that he has made them better players as well. You're also ignoring the fact that Alfredsson played only a little more than half the year with that crowd last year, virtually none the year before, and neither were present before that.

Well, in Heatley's last full season in Atlanta he scored 41 goals and had 89 points, in the "dead-puck" era, as a 22 year old. So I'd argue his numbers are a natural progression. And during the lockout, Spezza led the AHL in points, so it's pretty clear he was well on his way to being a bonafide NHLer. And you've helped my argument by pointing out that when those guys weren't around, Alfredsson's production was significantly lower.

das_hips Wrote:You can try and shit on Alfie as much as you would like to.

Just to be clear here, I'm not shitting on Alfie at all. For the most part he doesn't annoy me like he used to, and yeah, I agree with you 100% that he's a steal at his current salary (he makes less than Jason Blake this season. Now I have to go throw up again).

What I took issue with was you assertion that he took less than the market rate to play in Ottawa. He didn't. He signed a contract that was totally indicative of his production at that time, and it now looks like a great deal for the Sens, but only because of the 24% rollback.
Does anybody actually read these posts that seem to go on forever!?
You guys might as well call each other rather than typing this all out. It is supposed to be a post, not a chapter.

In other news, Montreal is playing Buffalo tonite. Lets hope the Habs come out with a better effort than the last time the play the Sabres!
Go Habs!
tth_fan Wrote:It is supposed to be a post, not a chapter.

Next time I'll include pictures and diagrams so that you can keep up.
its an open forum, people can say as much or as little as they want..i dont see the big deal.

..at least we have some real dialogue going on, rather than the Led Zeppelin sucks or the sean bonner type minutiae that seems to dominate this board now.


GO HABS GO!!
tth_fan Wrote:Does anybody actually read these posts that seem to go on forever!?
I hear what you're saying, I usually don't, exept for this thread :thumb:

cferneyh Wrote:
tth_fan Wrote:It is supposed to be a post, not a chapter.

Next time I'll include pictures and diagrams so that you can keep up.

I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that one :lol:
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