Stephen Dame Wrote:cferneyh Wrote:And yet another OT winner from Captain Clutch (and I won't bring up the fact that he scored another OT winner last night at Carolina that somehow was disallowed). Oh, but he's no leader. I keep forgetting. :roll:
Regular season wins are nice, but I personally see Mats as a failure because he's been captain for a decade, in a hockey market that should foster a winner, and hasn't ever taken them past the second round has he? Hell, at least Dougie got within a game of the finals. Mats is always "full of potential," and I think that's the problem. I'd ship him for youth and give E the C.
I couldn't disagree any more...lucky for you however, I'm far too hungover to discuss hockey with you today. A word of caution though...get your shit helmet on, cause the cferneyh "shit storm" is barelling down on you as we speak. Prepare to have your ass handed to you for lunch.
Goulet!!!
I dont see Mats as a failure, I see the franchise as a failure, 38 years and not even a place in the finals! With the money that team has, and the way it gouges its fans on tickets and to not even make it to the finals in the last 10 years is a slap in the face to the fans imo. Yeah they had a couple close ones (93 and 02 come to mind) but Im surprised the fans dont revolt, if I was a Leaf fan Id be pissed off at the team for that. The message I always got from Leaf fans and the management is that they want to win and the expectations are to win the cup year after year, well they have a funny way of showing it. Ane yeah my Habs have been mediocre since we won the cup in 93 and lost Patrick Roy (that hurt us big time) but the expectations had been lowered in Montreal, and the people there couldn't accept it, but they had to. Its pained me to watch detroit, NJ and Colorado win the cup year after year, while my team didnt even make the playoffs or lose out in the first round. But I had to accept it, but I sure didnt like it. I think the opposite can be said for Toronto, the Leafs have been a solid regular season team and done well in the playoffs for the last 10 years or so, but surely you Leaf fans have to be frustrated and angry that you havent at least gotten to the big dance? I would be.
I guess the point is, has the Leafs orginization done everything it could or should of to win the cup in the last 10-15 years, when it was possible for them to do so? Unlike in the Ballard years.
robert goulet Wrote:Stephen Dame Wrote:cferneyh Wrote:And yet another OT winner from Captain Clutch (and I won't bring up the fact that he scored another OT winner last night at Carolina that somehow was disallowed). Oh, but he's no leader. I keep forgetting. :roll:
Regular season wins are nice, but I personally see Mats as a failure because he's been captain for a decade, in a hockey market that should foster a winner, and hasn't ever taken them past the second round has he? Hell, at least Dougie got within a game of the finals. Mats is always "full of potential," and I think that's the problem. I'd ship him for youth and give E the C.
I couldn't disagree any more...lucky for you however, I'm far too hungover to discuss hockey with you today. A word of caution though...get your shit helmet on, cause the cferneyh "shit storm" is barelling down on you as we speak. Prepare to have your ass handed to you for lunch.
Goulet!!!
Ha. I like the term "shit helmet". I'm gonna borrow that one this week at work (the term - not the actual helmet).
Lucky for Dame I save my hockey discussions for those who actually have a clue what they are talking about. When someone says to me:
Sundin hasn't ever taken them past the second round has he?, it's clear they have absolutely
no clue what they are talking about, so I'm not going to bother wasting the bandwidth.
And Dame, as a Sens "fan", do you really want to talk playoff failures?
robert goulet Wrote:Stephen Dame Wrote:cferneyh Wrote:And yet another OT winner from Captain Clutch (and I won't bring up the fact that he scored another OT winner last night at Carolina that somehow was disallowed). Oh, but he's no leader. I keep forgetting. :roll:
Regular season wins are nice, but I personally see Mats as a failure because he's been captain for a decade, in a hockey market that should foster a winner, and hasn't ever taken them past the second round has he? Hell, at least Dougie got within a game of the finals. Mats is always "full of potential," and I think that's the problem. I'd ship him for youth and give E the C.
I couldn't disagree any more...lucky for you however, I'm far too hungover to discuss hockey with you today. A word of caution though...get your shit helmet on, cause the cferneyh "shit storm" is barelling down on you as we speak. Prepare to have your ass handed to you for lunch.
Goulet!!!
Meh, it's not a "Leafs Suck" polemic, their record speaks for itself. I think you have to measure a captain by results, and that's why I'd trade Mats, he hasn't produced.
Lizard King's points are valid, but I think shaking up the team and bringing in some young guys couldn't hurt. If I were a Leaf fan, I'd have to start questioning, as LK pointed out, the philosophy of the franchise. But... I'd start with the leader, the guy whose name goes on a massive pay cheque every two weeks, but hasn't even come close to being etched on anything else.
Did you guys see Malik's shoot out goal last night!
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Marek+Malik+AWESOME+Goal__2005-11-26_malik.mpg&s=black">http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Mar ... pg&s=black</a><!-- m -->
mrlayance Wrote:Did you guys see Malik's shoot out goal last night!
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Marek+Malik+AWESOME+Goal__2005-11-26_malik.mpg&s=black">http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Mar ... pg&s=black</a><!-- m -->
farmerdan69 Wrote:did anyone see that shootout goal by malik??? (nyr/was game)
yes...yes i did (sorry i had to!!)
thanks for putting up the vid
mrlayance Wrote:Did you guys see Malik's shoot out goal last night!
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Marek+Malik+AWESOME+Goal__2005-11-26_malik.mpg&s=black">http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Mar ... pg&s=black</a><!-- m -->
Yeah, that was awesome...moreso when you consider the guy's a defensman who's never scored more than 7 goals in a season and that it was the 15th round of the shootout!
hock:
The Leafs' Kyle Wellwood tried something similar during a game vs. Florida earlier this week and was stopped...Gotta love PQ's comment below (source: Globe and Mail last Friday)... :lol:
Quote:Timing is everything
Like most rookies, Kyle Wellwood has a little to learn about timing. As in he picked a bad time on two fronts to display a little sleight of hand that most players limit to practice.
Late in the Toronto Maple Leafs' game against the Florida Panthers last Monday, Wellwood found himself with the puck in front of goaltender Jamie McLennan. He had a little extra time to shoot, so he decided to show off and fired a shot from between his legs, something he admitted later he had been working on in practice.
McLennan, like just about any other National Hockey League goalie, was not fooled and easily stopped the trick shot. The score was 1-1 at the time, and even though the Leafs went on to win 2-1, head coach Pat Quinn was not impressed.
"He'll end up in the stands if he fools around like that," Quinn said. "There's a time and a place for tom-foolery.
"It was a 1-1 game and it was a chance for us. It might have been the only chance we were going to get. You have to approach it a little more seriously than that."
The second reason Wellwood's timing was bad is the imminent return of Mats Sundin from an eye injury. When Sundin is added to the lineup, probably for Saturday's game against the Tampa Bay Lightning, somebody will have to go. Wellwood is one of the candidates since he was called up from the farm team when Sundin was injured.
As a rookie, Wellwood can be sent to the Leafs' farm team, the Toronto Marlies, without being placed on waivers. Ditto fellow rookies Andy Wozniewski and Staffan Kronvall.
Luckily for Wellwood, who ran up seven points in 11 games, Quinn was a little more mellow about him on Tuesday when the subject of who will get the axe was broached. It looks like either Wozniewski or Kronvall will get the demotion.
"Kyle's done very well," Quinn said. "He's much improved in his overall play. It's going to be a hard call."
As for the trick shot, you can be sure that Wellwood will limit it to practice from now on.
Anyone who watches NHL teams practice will see all sorts of tom-foolery, as Quinn calls it. Players love to amuse themselves with between-the-legs passes and shots, picking up the puck and carrying it aloft on the blade of their stick, or seeing how long they can bounce the puck off the blade of their stick.
Often, there is a wager of lunch on these little displays although, as Wellwood discovered, the stakes can be somewhat higher.
LizardKing51 Wrote:I dont see Mats as a failure, I see the franchise as a failure, 38 years and not even a place in the finals! With the money that team has, and the way it gouges its fans on tickets and to not even make it to the finals in the last 10 years is a slap in the face to the fans imo. Yeah they had a couple close ones (93 and 02 come to mind) but Im surprised the fans dont revolt, if I was a Leaf fan Id be pissed off at the team for that. The message I always got from Leaf fans and the management is that they want to win and the expectations are to win the cup year after year, well they have a funny way of showing it. Ane yeah my Habs have been mediocre since we won the cup in 93 and lost Patrick Roy (that hurt us big time) but the expectations had been lowered in Montreal, and the people there couldn't accept it, but they had to. Its pained me to watch detroit, NJ and Colorado win the cup year after year, while my team didnt even make the playoffs or lose out in the first round. But I had to accept it, but I sure didnt like it. I think the opposite can be said for Toronto, the Leafs have been a solid regular season team and done well in the playoffs for the last 10 years or so, but surely you Leaf fans have to be frustrated and angry that you havent at least gotten to the big dance? I would be.
I guess the point is, has the Leafs orginization done everything it could or should of to win the cup in the last 10-15 years, when it was possible for them to do so? Unlike in the Ballard years.
This is the kind of thinking I don't understand. How can anyone say that the Leafs
aren't doing everything they can to win? The Leafs are a business, and the best part of the NHL business is the playoffs. The players don't get paid their regular salaries for the playoffs, the ticket prices are higher, the TV advertising sells for more, etc etc etc. So for EVERY team out there, the best thing you can do for the business is to play every possible home playoff game there is.
What should the Leafs have done differently? Signed Bill Guerin and Bobby Holik for $9 million per? Signed Pierre Turgeon for $7 million per? The Rangers PROVED that trying to buy yourself a championship through free agency was not the model of success over the past 10 years. The Leafs' biggest problem - time and time again - is a piss-poor drafting record.
Another problem with the Leafs - as I see it - is that their style of game (puck possession, up-tempo) didn't work in the playoffs in the Eastern conference, and they've never had a goalie steal them a series like other teams from the East have had. If you look at the recent teams that have come out of the East - pre Tampa - it was New Jersey, Carolina, Buffalo, and Washington. What did those teams have in common? They were trapping teams that capitalized on other teams' mistakes and had a goalie who played spectacular for stretches of time. Cujo lovers refuse to admit it, but Cujo has ALWAYS shit the bed when he's been needed most. Ever notice where he played his best playoff hockey? Edmonton. Why? Expectations were low. When the Leafs (and Detroit) needed him to steal a series or outplay the other goalie, he simply couldn't do it. Just like how he's been brutal in international play (World Cup 96 anyone?).
To say that Sundin is the problem is pure idiocy and sounds like a guy who doesn't watch the games (I mean to not even know that the Leafs have gone final four TWICE with Sundin as captain while arguing that he's the problem?!? Weak). Sundin is the heart and soul of the team. He's the all time Maple Leaf leader in GWGs. He's the alltime NHL leader in OT goals. He's hardly the problem. As Gretzky proved in LA, and as Messier proved in Vancouver, if you don't have the depth, it doesn't matter how good you are. The poor Leaf drafting has cost them the depth that they've needed to go to the next level.
I agree with pretty much all your points there cferneyh, and yeah Sundin is definitely not the problem, I dont know how anyone can think that. Trading Sundin for Clark was one of the worst trades in NHL history. I was just wanting to get a Leaf fans perspective on the matter. It just seems to me (as a non-Leaf fan) that the fans have been somewhat cheated, especially for all their loyalty and patience they deserved better than what they got is all Im saying. Is that a fair assesment? I cant say exactely what they should of done different, but scouting/drafting, trades and free-agent signings are what you do to build a team. I just wonder if they did all they could in those areas to really challenge for the cup, given the teams resources. This is a bit of a grey area thing and its open to all kinds of thoughts, so I dont want this to be taken as a Leaf bashing...that aint my style. All I heard growing up at school was your team sucks! your teams sucks! you suck! habs suck! And then one of my friends in high school and up until a couple years ago was the most obnoxious annoying loudmouth Leaf fan in Canada, and he drove me nuts.. according to him they could do no wrong and every year they would win the cup is all I heard. So I refuse to get into a "my team is better than yours" type of mudslinging match, its kids stuff.
cferneyh Wrote:LizardKing51 Wrote:I dont see Mats as a failure, I see the franchise as a failure, 38 years and not even a place in the finals! With the money that team has, and the way it gouges its fans on tickets and to not even make it to the finals in the last 10 years is a slap in the face to the fans imo. Yeah they had a couple close ones (93 and 02 come to mind) but Im surprised the fans dont revolt, if I was a Leaf fan Id be pissed off at the team for that. The message I always got from Leaf fans and the management is that they want to win and the expectations are to win the cup year after year, well they have a funny way of showing it. Ane yeah my Habs have been mediocre since we won the cup in 93 and lost Patrick Roy (that hurt us big time) but the expectations had been lowered in Montreal, and the people there couldn't accept it, but they had to. Its pained me to watch detroit, NJ and Colorado win the cup year after year, while my team didnt even make the playoffs or lose out in the first round. But I had to accept it, but I sure didnt like it. I think the opposite can be said for Toronto, the Leafs have been a solid regular season team and done well in the playoffs for the last 10 years or so, but surely you Leaf fans have to be frustrated and angry that you havent at least gotten to the big dance? I would be.
I guess the point is, has the Leafs orginization done everything it could or should of to win the cup in the last 10-15 years, when it was possible for them to do so? Unlike in the Ballard years.
This is the kind of thinking I don't understand. How can anyone say that the Leafs aren't doing everything they can to win? The Leafs are a business, and the best part of the NHL business is the playoffs. The players don't get paid their regular salaries for the playoffs, the ticket prices are higher, the TV advertising sells for more, etc etc etc. So for EVERY team out there, the best thing you can do for the business is to play every possible home playoff game there is.
What should the Leafs have done differently? Signed Bill Guerin and Bobby Holik for $9 million per? Signed Pierre Turgeon for $7 million per? The Rangers PROVED that trying to buy yourself a championship through free agency was not the model of success over the past 10 years. The Leafs' biggest problem - time and time again - is a piss-poor drafting record.
Another problem with the Leafs - as I see it - is that their style of game (puck possession, up-tempo) didn't work in the playoffs in the Eastern conference, and they've never had a goalie steal them a series like other teams from the East have had. If you look at the recent teams that have come out of the East - pre Tampa - it was New Jersey, Carolina, Buffalo, and Washington. What did those teams have in common? They were trapping teams that capitalized on other teams' mistakes and had a goalie who played spectacular for stretches of time. Cujo lovers refuse to admit it, but Cujo has ALWAYS shit the bed when he's been needed most. Ever notice where he played his best playoff hockey? Edmonton. Why? Expectations were low. When the Leafs (and Detroit) needed him to steal a series or outplay the other goalie, he simply couldn't do it. Just like how he's been brutal in international play (World Cup 96 anyone?).
To say that Sundin is the problem is pure idiocy and sounds like a guy who doesn't watch the games (I mean to not even know that the Leafs have gone final four TWICE with Sundin as captain while arguing that he's the problem?!? Weak). Sundin is the heart and soul of the team. He's the all time Maple Leaf leader in GWGs. He's the alltime NHL leader in OT goals. He's hardly the problem. As Gretzky proved in LA, and as Messier proved in Vancouver, if you don't have the depth, it doesn't matter how good you are. The poor Leaf drafting has cost them the depth that they've needed to go to the next level.
Cujo and Sundin hava A LOT IN COMMON. How else do you measure a guy's greatness if not by Stanley Cup wins???? I don't see any rings on the fingers of Sundin and Cujo. That's the bottom line isn't it?? Winning. How can you blame Cujo for playoff failures and excuse Sundin??? (I agree about Cujo BTW)
That's the responsibility of a Captain, to win. Whether it is the C's fault or not for losing, it's his job to take the blunt of the criticism. It's the same in football with the QB. The QB gets most of the blame for losing no matter what. Being a captain opens up the doors to criticism. I don't see Sundin as a terrible leader but I don't see him being the best leader either. I see Iginla,Naslund, Forsberg, Pronger, Sakic, Koivu as equals to Sundin as far as leaders go. I'd say Iginla is the best leader in hockey at the moment. Sundin is a very good player. Why do you have to defend him so much? Everyone recognizes that he is a very good player. Dan Marino, Charles Barkley, Peyton Manning all get criticized regularly for not winning a ring. Sundin shouldn't be above that criticism either.
BTW, Messier sucked in Vancouver. Messier didn't prove anything in Vancouver except that he played terribly and was done as a top notch player. Messier was responsible for a lot of Vancouver's failures as a hockey team. Gretzky was still great in LA, Messier stunk in Vancouver.
LizardKing51 Wrote:I agree with pretty much all your points there cferneyh, and yeah Sundin is definitely not the problem, I dont know how anyone can think that. Trading Sundin for Clark was one of the worst trades in NHL history. I was just wanting to get a Leaf fans perspective on the matter. It just seems to me (as a non-Leaf fan) that the fans have been somewhat cheated, especially for all their loyalty and patience they deserved better than what they got is all Im saying. Is that a fair assesment? I cant say exactely what they should of done different, but scouting/drafting, trades and free-agent signings are what you do to build a team. I just wonder if they did all they could in those areas to really challenge for the cup, given the teams resources. This is a bit of a grey area thing and its open to all kinds of thoughts, so I dont want this to be taken as a Leaf bashing...that aint my style. All I heard growing up at school was your team sucks! your teams sucks! you suck! habs suck! And then one of my friends in high school and up until a couple years ago was the most obnoxious annoying loudmouth Leaf fan in Canada, and he drove me nuts.. according to him they could do no wrong and every year they would win the cup is all I heard. So I refuse to get into a "my team is better than yours" type of mudslinging match, its kids stuff.
Yeah, there are a TON of obnoxious Leaf fans out there. Chances are that they own a Domi jersey and cried when Gilmour got traded to New Jersey.
I honestly believe that - as an organization (and I'm talking post-Ballard years) - they have done all that they could to win. But for some reason they keep making comically bad decisions when it comes to drafting (Luca Cereda anyone) and they never seem to get those mid-round draft picks that develop into bonafide NHLers. Personally, now that they are in a cap era, I think they need to use their competitive advantage (i.e. money) to hire away the best scouts from other teams, because whoever they have scouting now ain't getting it done.
tigerthelion Wrote:Sundin is a very good player. Why do you have to defend him so much?
Uh, probably because when I read comments like "he's a failure" I feel the need to set the record straight. If someone pissed all over your favourite player you'd just let it go?
cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:Sundin is a very good player. Why do you have to defend him so much?
Uh, probably because when I read comments like "he's a failure" I feel the need to set the record straight. If someone pissed all over your favourite player you'd just let it go?
as a Steve Young fan, i heard about it all the time until he won the big game...that, and young had some huge shoes to fill, but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...
As a Dan Marino fan I constantly have to defend the no Super Bowl ring thing and now being a massive Mats Sundin fan I'm feeling a lot of those same feelings looming over my head. Mats only has a few more years before he starts slowing down, hopefully he brings us home the bacon before that happens though.
Goulet!!!
opiated Wrote:cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:Sundin is a very good player. Why do you have to defend him so much?
Uh, probably because when I read comments like "he's a failure" I feel the need to set the record straight. If someone pissed all over your favourite player you'd just let it go?
as a Steve Young fan, i heard about it all the time until he won the big game...that, and young had some huge shoes to fill, but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...
Exactly, that's just the way it is in sports. You have to win to get all the accolades. Heck, I think Charles Barkley is one of the top two or three PF's to ever play basketball but he's always going to deal with the fact that he didn't win the big one. I started becoming a Suns' fan when Barkley was traded to the land of the rising sun.
It isn't life or death though. If Sundin never wins the big one, he'll have to deal with a few fans but he'll have millions and millions of reasons to be happy.
I think over the last four years, Naslund has been a better player than Sundin but he hasn't won a Cup. I have no problem with criticism of Naslund because the fact is he hasn't won a Cup yet. Once Manning wins a Super Bowl, you'll start hearing him being mentioned as the best QB in history. He isn't talked about in that category yet because he hasn't won yet.
Tom Brady is considered by most people to be the best QB in football at the moment because he's won 3 SB's. Manning always has better numbers but Brady has the rings.