Got to agree with you on this one, cfern.
cferneyh Wrote:Perhaps, but let me ask you this: is winning not good for business? Are four rounds of home playoff dates not good for business? Are the increased merchandise sales that come with winning not good for business? Is the inevitable ticket price increase that comes with being a defending Cup champ, or Cup finalist, not good for business?
The simple fact of the matter is that winning is VERY good for business, especially when you consider that the team can charge more for playoff tickets, but their biggest expense (salaries) is greatly reduced. So anyone - and especially Steve Simmons - who thinks that any NHL owner, regardless of who they are, doesn't want to win, is out to lunch. If you are more concerned with your ROI, like the Teacher's Pension, you want to win for all that playoff gravy. If you are simply a competitive bastard, you want to win because you are a competitive bastard.
So, quite frankly, I simply don't understand the argument that because the Teacher's Pension is a business first, that they don't want the Leafs to win the Cup. Of course they do! Their motivations are just a little different than the average fan.....
Well said. The problem with the Leafs' ownership isn't that they don't want to win, it's that they can't figure out how to go about doing it because there are too many people involved. Requiring the GM to get board approval for every move he makes is ridiculous. I don't understand why they insist on being so controlling over the hockey team. Their basketball team has done quite well since they hired the best available person and gave him the autonomy to run it as he sees fit. Although if the latest
rumoursare true, perhaps they are finally coming to their senses.
cferneyh Wrote:That is a good one - I like Brunt. I don't always agree with what he has to say, but at least he's coherent. Searching For Bobby Orr is a really good book.
Yeah I've heard good things, I've been meaning to pick it up.
Ok, so color me confused. If the Leafs create a new position of Director/President of Hockey Operations, are they going to fire JFJ and give his responsibilities to the Director or are they just adding another layer of management?
They'd be adding another layer. But the hope lies in the fact that none of the high profile candidates mentioned would be likely to consider taking the position without being given the autonomy from the board to run the team as they choose. So instead of JFJ having to answer to the board, JFJ would answer to the new person (and thus, they'd also have the sole power to replace JFJ and hire a new GM if they felt so inclined).
cferneyh Wrote:j-monster Wrote:In a way, I do worry that some of Simmons' ramblings are right, even though his comparisons to the Flyers are completely, ludicrously off the mark... that the Leafs due to the presence of the Teachers' Pension are too focused on the bottom line at the expense of winning. I probably won't feel comfortable about that until someone finally gets the cash together... and grows a set... to step up and buy the Teachers' Pension out.
Perhaps, but let me ask you this: is winning not good for business? Are four rounds of home playoff dates not good for business? Are the increased merchandise sales that come with winning not good for business? Is the inevitable ticket price increase that comes with being a defending Cup champ, or Cup finalist, not good for business?
The simple fact of the matter is that winning is VERY good for business, especially when you consider that the team can charge more for playoff tickets, but their biggest expense (salaries) is greatly reduced. So anyone - and especially Steve Simmons - who thinks that any NHL owner, regardless of who they are, doesn't want to win, is out to lunch. If you are more concerned with your ROI, like the Teacher's Pension, you want to win for all that playoff gravy. If you are simply a competitive bastard, you want to win because you are a competitive bastard.
So, quite frankly, I simply don't understand the argument that because the Teacher's Pension is a business first, that they don't want the Leafs to win the Cup. Of course they do! Their motivations are just a little different than the average fan.....
OK, I grant you that the Teachers' Pension wants to win based on the reasons you listed, but I think the point I was trying to make is that it's nothing more than just wanting. To paraphrase from you, they are not "competitive bastards". I don't see the desire, the hunger, the all-out drive to win like other owners (such as Eugene Melnyk) are showing. I guess the question we won't know the answer to unless we get on the inside is this: are they truly not super-competitive, or is it just as grimes says, that they are super-competitive but just don't have a clue as to how to go about it the right way?
Maybe the possible creation of this new position will be the spark that helps get it done. Maybe the board looked at what happened with Colangelo and the Raptors and said to themselves "Huh, how about that. If we hire a qualified person to run the show and get out of the way, it actually results in a winning team." Well, one can only hope I suppose...
I just read on sportsnet.ca that the Leafs have traded 3 picks to San Jose for Toskala.
LizardKing51 Wrote:I just read on sportsnet.ca that the Leafs have traded 3 picks to San Jose for Toskala.
Wow, I am going to cry.......................Yes we needed a Goalie, and Toskala definitely fills those shoes.....but three picks?? I hope its like our second round for 2007 2008 2009 or something like that??
If we gave away our 1st rounder again.............. :rambo:
Unless there is another deal in the midst to get a better draft spot..............
cochise Wrote:LizardKing51 Wrote:I just read on sportsnet.ca that the Leafs have traded 3 picks to San Jose for Toskala.
Wow, I am going to cry.......................Yes we needed a Goalie, and Toskala definitely fills those shoes.....but three picks?? I hope its like our second round for 2007 2008 2009 or something like that??
If we gave away our 1st rounder again.............. :rambo:
Unless there is another deal in the midst to get a better draft spot..............
Done deal
TSN.ca Staff
6/22/2007 12:44:11 PM
The Toronto Maple Leafs have acquired goaltender Vesa Toskala and winger Mark Bell from the San Jose Sharks in exchange for first and second-round picks in 2007 and a 2009 fourth-round pick.
Hope there is another deal in the works to get 1st rounder back. I smell a Kubina/Raycroft deal going down...............
EDIT: I shouldn't have posted so quickly...............the more I think about it the more I like this deal...........we got Bell too......not too much to brag about, but if another deal is in the works on a winger for Mats..................Leafs might look pretty good this season.......
Why is the damn draft tonight anyway? It's not like VS. is gonna get HUGE ratings for this. It is kinda like watching paint dry but at the same time of a car-wreck you have to watch to BELIVE your teams pick is the Second Coming. Usually watch a bit of it but can't tonight. My sons high school graduation is tonight. ( proud papa moment here...
) but he's way pissed it's tonight since he watchs every year. I'm DVRing it for him but it's weird to be on a Friday.
That seems like a pretty good deal for the Leafs, Raycroft just cant cut it as a full time starter, they needed help. As for Bell he lost his way a bit, too much California sun made him stupid I think, coming back to Ontario into a hockey mad city like T.O should wake him up, he's got good potential. It depends how the picks turn out and if Toskala is up to the challenge of playing in Toronto, as usual time will tell.
I also read the Sharks are shopping Marleau around, I think Gainey should have a sniff at that possibly.
I'm not sure what to think of this move yet. Toskala is definitely an upgrade from Raycroft in terms of talent, but he's 30 years old and has never played more than 38 games in a season, so he's by no means a lock to be a number one goalie in this league. Giving up their top two picks in this year's draft is a steep price to pay...typical Leafs move though. I too hope JFJ does something to get a first rounder back tonight.
*Edit* Alright I've thought this one over now and what the Leafs need after this trade is two things, one to get back some cap space after taking on Toskala and Bell, and two to get a first round pick back. The Oilers happen to have three first round picks, and are also known to be in the market for a defenseman that can play the powerplay. How about Pavel Kubina to the Oil for that 15th overall pick...
grimes Wrote:I'm not sure what to think of this move yet. Toskala is definitely an upgrade from Raycroft in terms of talent, but he's 30 years old and has never played more than 38 games in a season, so he's by no means a lock to be a number one goalie in this league. Giving up their top two picks in this year's draft is a steep price to pay...typical Leafs move though. I too hope JFJ does something to get a first rounder back tonight.
*Edit* Alright I've thought this one over now and what the Leafs need after this trade is two things, one to get back some cap space after taking on Toskala and Bell, and two to get a first round pick back. The Oilers happen to have three first round picks, and are also known to be in the market for a defenseman that can play the powerplay. How about Pavel Kubina to the Oil for that 15th overall pick...
I just read a rumor that the Oilers are very interested in Kubina and trying hard for him.
Also read McCabe to Isles is heating up as well, but I will believe that when I see it happen. The Kubina deal sounds much more realistic.
And I am with you Grimes, after chewing on it for an hour or so............if JFJ does indeed get a 1st round pick back, this deal is looking pretty sweet :thumb:
cochise Wrote:grimes Wrote:I'm not sure what to think of this move yet. Toskala is definitely an upgrade from Raycroft in terms of talent, but he's 30 years old and has never played more than 38 games in a season, so he's by no means a lock to be a number one goalie in this league. Giving up their top two picks in this year's draft is a steep price to pay...typical Leafs move though. I too hope JFJ does something to get a first rounder back tonight.
*Edit* Alright I've thought this one over now and what the Leafs need after this trade is two things, one to get back some cap space after taking on Toskala and Bell, and two to get a first round pick back. The Oilers happen to have three first round picks, and are also known to be in the market for a defenseman that can play the powerplay. How about Pavel Kubina to the Oil for that 15th overall pick...
I just read a rumor that the Oilers are very interested in Kubina and trying hard for him.
Also read McCabe to Isles is heating up as well, but I will believe that when I see it happen. The Kubina deal sounds much more realistic.
And I am with you Grimes, after chewing on it for an hour or so............if JFJ does indeed get a 1st round pick back, this deal is looking pretty sweet :thumb:
Yeah lets hope he can get rid of at least one of McCabe or Kubina, and I agree I can't see it being McCabe, so it probably has to be Kubina.
In other news, the Nashville fire-sale is heating up with Vokoun off to Florida:
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grimes Wrote:In other news, the Nashville fire-sale is heating up with Vokoun off to Florida:
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makes sense, the back-up(Mason) stole the number one job last year, and was an allstar too i think
WTF?
Balsillie out as prospective owner
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*Edit* alright it's not as bad as first reported. They originally made it sound like the deal was completely dead...