MikeS Wrote:I feel for Mats...I really do...
I mean, here's a guy who has exemplified CLASS within a franchise that is clearly despised from coast to coast, and yet people fail to give him his due...
The Ray Bourque comparison mentioned earlier struck a chord with me...basically what that example suggests is that if Sundin were traded at the deadline to a team that went on to win the Cup, his career would all of a sudden have some sort of magical "meaning"...
For anyone born after 1967 (ie. the "post-Keon Years"), and with apologies to Wendel Clark (who didn't have the added pressure of playing for a contender) there is only one player who has brought to Toronto what Sundin has brought in his tenure here, and that's Darryl Sittler...I hate to say it, but if Mats was born in Brampton as opposed to Bromma, many people would probably look at his career very differently...
Bottom line is, he's a guaranteed first ballot hall of famer...DEAL WITH IT!
Who said he wasn't a HOF'er?? Nobody said that at all. That has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONVERSATION!!!
Sundin fans are the most defensive fans of all time. I'm a fan of the Canucks and Naslund is by far their best player. Does Naslund deserve criticism for not delivering a Cup to Vancouver. YOU ARE DAMN RIGHT HE DOES. That's the baggage that comes with being captain. Stop being so damn sensitive. Everyone knows Sundin is a very good player. That's not the point.
Read my earlier posts because you obviously misinterpreted my statements. By no means did I say Bourque was better than Sundin just because he won a cup. (I do think Bourque is better but that Cup win with Colorado isn't the reason)I was making a point about the media and that once you win a Cup, you are deified. That's the way it goes. I don't control it. That's the way it is.
j-monster Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:opiated Wrote:cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:Sundin is a very good player. Why do you have to defend him so much?
Uh, probably because when I read comments like "he's a failure" I feel the need to set the record straight. If someone pissed all over your favourite player you'd just let it go?
as a Steve Young fan, i heard about it all the time until he won the big game...that, and young had some huge shoes to fill, but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...
Exactly, that's just the way it is in sports. You have to win to get all the accolades. Heck, I think Charles Barkley is one of the top two or three PF's to ever play basketball but he's always going to deal with the fact that he didn't win the big one. I started becoming a Suns' fan when Barkley was traded to the land of the rising sun.
It isn't life or death though. If Sundin never wins the big one, he'll have to deal with a few fans but he'll have millions and millions of reasons to be happy.
I think over the last four years, Naslund has been a better player than Sundin but he hasn't won a Cup. I have no problem with criticism of Naslund because the fact is he hasn't won a Cup yet. Once Manning wins a Super Bowl, you'll start hearing him being mentioned as the best QB in history. He isn't talked about in that category yet because he hasn't won yet.
Tom Brady is considered by most people to be the best QB in football at the moment because he's won 3 SB's. Manning always has better numbers but Brady has the rings.
I just have to add my two cents to this piece. To compare Sundin as a captain to Brady or Manning or a captain/leader in basketball in terms of championships/adeptness as a leader is pretty unfair. In basketball a captain/great player will play almost the whole game, if not the whole game, so he will always have an impact on how his team does. A QB has an impact in all his team's plays on offense, which can be half the game or more. As a captain, Sundin plays, at most, 20 minutes per game, and often plays less (he should play more, but that's another story). That means he can only have an impact for, at most, one third of the game, which is less than football or basketball. Hockey is a sport where more than others you need all of your teammates to help you gain success. This is why, in Sundin's case, you can't shoulder him with a large portion of the blame... clearly his teammates, and the organization for not providing Sundin with enough supporting talent, deserve the lion's share of the blame for the Leafs not winning a Cup in the Sundin era.
A QB needs good recievers, a good offensive line, and a good RB to be successful. A QB can't win a game alone. Therefore, I think the comparison is valid. :thumb: A QB only has so much control of a game. A hockey player can have as much effect on a game as an NFL QB. No one player can ever win all by himself but it's the job of the leader or leaders of the team to be able to shoulder most of the blame. It comes with the position of being a leader.
tigerthelion Wrote:Sundin fans are the most defensive fans of all time. Stop being so damn sensitive.
And how about you stop repeating yourself?
Look, when someone comes on here and calls Sundin a "failure", I'm going to defend him. If you don't like it:
(a) skip the post - if you see my name and "Sundin" in the text, you know what is coming.
(b) don't respond to the post, thereby extending the conversation.
Pretty easy, eh?
tigerthelion Wrote:A QB needs good recievers, a good offensive line, and a good RB to be successful. A QB can't win a game alone. Therefore, I think the comparison is valid.
Nah, j-monster is right. A QB is in on
every offensive play (not counting field goals and extra points). Every single play runs through him. The same cannot be said for a forward in hockey, who is on the ice at best 1/3 of the time.
How about Bryan McCabe this season! Wow! Scored yet another PP goal tonight, this one coming midway through the 3rd period to give the Leafs a 2-1 lead, which ended up being the final score so it's another GWG for McCabe as well. McCabe now has 10 goals and 33 points in 25 games, the man is on pace for 108 points!
I honestly don't see how McCabe could be left off of the Olympic team! Especially with some of our younger defensemen struggling this season...regardless though McCabe deserves to be there! There a better scoring threat or powerplay quaterback in the game today.
cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:Sundin fans are the most defensive fans of all time. Stop being so damn sensitive.
And how about you stop repeating yourself?
Look, when someone comes on here and calls Sundin a "failure", I'm going to defend him. If you don't like it:
(a) skip the post - if you see my name and "Sundin" in the text, you know what is coming.
(b) don't respond to the post, thereby extending the conversation.
Pretty easy, eh?
Yeah, I'm the one repeating myself ... :roll: Don't worry, I'm through with Sundin. You can keep idolizing him all you want. Don't be disappointed that the Leafs won't win another Cup until the year 2060 though. :thumb:
cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:A QB needs good recievers, a good offensive line, and a good RB to be successful. A QB can't win a game alone. Therefore, I think the comparison is valid.
Nah, j-monster is right. A QB is in on every offensive play (not counting field goals and extra points). Every single play runs through him. The same cannot be said for a forward in hockey, who is on the ice at best 1/3 of the time.
Yeah, the Ravens won the SB because of Dilfer.....right.
cratch:
tigerthelion Wrote:cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:A QB needs good recievers, a good offensive line, and a good RB to be successful. A QB can't win a game alone. Therefore, I think the comparison is valid.
Nah, j-monster is right. A QB is in on every offensive play (not counting field goals and extra points). Every single play runs through him. The same cannot be said for a forward in hockey, who is on the ice at best 1/3 of the time.
Yeah, the Ravens won the SB because of Dilfer.....right. cratch:
Nice selective argument. Bravo.
In the 39 Super Bowls played the QB has been the MVP 20 times.
TWENTY. That's
13 more than the runner-up position, running back (7).
Yeah, the QB doesn't play a dominant role at all. :roll:
:x Bloody hell!....My Habs are down 3-0 to Sens after two, we didn't need that. Were in a shit slide at the moment, we need a boost from somewhere, turn this losing skid around. Losing Hainsey in the wiaver draft today kills me, he was a good prospect, why let him go like that?
:roll:
sabres keep rolling ,3-2 over the Pens(8-1-0-1 in their last 10). 1 pt behind the 2nd place canadiens and a meeting between these two clubs on thursday night in quebec. Loving the new NHL!
Go Sabres!!
Can they keep this up? Oh well, I'll enjoy the run.
Watch out Montreal, we're coming for ya! :rambo:
Tonight's game was over before the puck dropped, Habs had 3 defencemen out. Could only dress 5 on D, 1 of whom was playing his first NHL game.
Not sure what Bryan Murray is doing with the goaltending. Hasek played back-to-back on Friday and Saturday, and with Emery going tonight I'm sure he'll be playing again Thursday and Friday.
Any word on Havlat? I don't like the sound of a dislocated shoulder. Maybe I can get an update on ESPN :roll:
keithtalent Wrote:Tonight's game was over before the puck dropped, Habs had 3 defencemen out. Could only dress 5 on D, 1 of whom was playing his first NHL game.
Not sure what Bryan Murray is doing with the goaltending. Hasek played back-to-back on Friday and Saturday, and with Emery going tonight I'm sure he'll be playing again Thursday and Friday.
Any word on Havlat? I don't like the sound of a dislocated shoulder. Maybe I can get an update on ESPN :roll:
Muckler said he's likely out 4-6 weeks.
Man, I just traded him in my keeper pool last week. Phew!
ryan93 Wrote:How about Bryan McCabe this season! Wow! Scored yet another PP goal tonight, this one coming midway through the 3rd period to give the Leafs a 2-1 lead, which ended up being the final score so it's another GWG for McCabe as well. McCabe now has 10 goals and 33 points in 25 games, the man is on pace for 108 points!
I honestly don't see how McCabe could be left off of the Olympic team! Especially with some of our younger defensemen struggling this season...regardless though McCabe deserves to be there! There a better scoring threat or powerplay quaterback in the game today.
I'm lovin' McCabe's season as well... but as much as I think he deserves Olympic consideration, he's not going to get in. Normally I'm loathe to credit Al Strachan as being correct on a hockey issue, and I hate the condescending tone he has in parts of his column, but I think he has an accurate read on what the management team is going to do.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Str...2-sun.html
Fortunately for Canada, the people who put together our national hockey teams have a better idea of how to do it than the average fan and most of the media.
That's why Bryan McCabe's chances of playing in the Olympics are close to non-existent.
Even though the Maple Leafs fans and media -- not that there is much of a distinction in many cases -- want to see McCabe playing in Turin next February, the selectors want a gold medal, not a PR coup. As a result, McCabe isn't likely to make it.
It's not that McCabe isn't having an excellent season. He is. The way he is playing, he should win the Norris Trophy.
But has everyone forgotten the troubles Canada used to get into when we tried to send all-star teams to major international events?
Has everyone forgotten the troubles the New York Rangers got into when they tried to win by buying all of the stars?
Hockey is a team game, and the people who are putting together Team Canada want to assemble a group of players who will work well as a unit and win the gold medal.
In Salt Lake City, for instance, Mike Peca was a key player. In the late stages of crucial games, he was double-shifted -- often at the expense of Eric Lindros -- in order to keep the opposition in check.
No one could argue that there weren't dozens of forwards who were in the midst of better offensive seasons than Peca. But they stayed home while Peca went and did his job.
Similarly, even though McCabe is having a spectacular offensive season, the organizers are not really looking for a defenceman who provides offence. They already have plenty of them. And plenty of forwards who can do it, as well.
McCabe's supporters will say that he should supplant one of the others who are likely to be named to the squad. But that's not the way the Team Canada thought process works.
With Bob Nicholson at its head, this group strives for continuity. The theory is that if the organizers start from scratch and throw together an all-star squad every time a Team Canada is required, the nation is not well-served.
Instead, they start with a core group --players who have been on Team Canada on previous occasions, have served the country well and, by definition, are familiar with both their teammates and the situation when playing at a high international level.
Given all the recent success Canada has enjoyed using this format, it's hard to disagree with it.
If one of those core players is to be supplanted, there has to be good reason to do so.
The core defence group going in is: Chris Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, Robyn Regehr, Ed Jovanovski, Adam Foote, Rob Blake and Wade Redden.
Which one of those would McCabe replace? Yes, he is an excellent offensive defenceman and these observations are not intended to denigrate his skills. But he is not a particularly great puck- carrier and his defensive skills aren't notable.
In the case of each of those core seven, there are excellent reasons why they should not lose their job to McCabe.
And even if one of those players were to be supplanted, why would McCabe automatically get the nod? Has anybody watched Dion Phaneuf play this season?
The organizers like to slide in an occasional youngster so that Team Canada doesn't fall off the cliff -- as has been the case with the United States -- when all the stars get old together.
If there is to be a new face on Canada's defence corps, the selectors are much more likely to go with a kid such as Phaneuf who has proved conclusively that he can excel at this level and will be around for years to come.
The Olympic selectors have done us proud so far, and McCabe just doesn't fit at the moment.
It's funny that he makes the comment about the Rangers. I remember two years ago when he was saying that the problem with the Rangers was the career ending injury to Dan Blackburn, as in had he been healthy - the unproven 20 year old he was - the Rangers and their bloated payroll would have been very competitive. Guess he's changed his tune.
I honestly think that if you put McCabe in Jovo's jersey at Turin and didn't tell anyone, no one would notice. I'm not all that certain that Foote deserves a spot on the team just because he's been there before. He isn't exactly having a stellar year in Columbus. And Rob Blake has the worst +/- on the Avs. McCabe is an arrogant prick - and I won't feel sorry for him if he doesn't make the team - but he definitely deserves a spot.