PunBB

Am I the only one or are there others out there that believe, Now The Struggle Has A Name has cords in it that sound exactly the same as Pink Floyd's Comfortably Numb?

bobrockruinedthehip Wrote:This album is a departure and with anything new, there is bound to be controversy and disagreement. The problem with WATS is not that the Hip wanted something different, it's that Bob Rock different is no damn good.

The HIp built their reputation and loyal following through basic guitar driven compositions. Unfortunately, members of the band felt a need to"evolve". Enter Bob Rock and his vision of a bigger, better Hip. Rock is more interested in show casing his production rather than putting the basic Hip components front and center. Rock buries the guitars, drums and vocals under orchestral accompaniments and overblown backing vocals. The Hip need to be stripped down not built up. Just look at the response to their acoustic set on this tour as proof. With this band, less really is more.

This is exactly what I've thought each time I've listened to this album. WATS is light years better than WC, which was a mediocre Hip album buried under the full assault of a Bob Rock production crapfest. For my money, WATS is a very good Hip album, buried under a little too much Bob Rock excess baggage. Country Day is an amazing tune, but is slightly ruined by the way Gord forces too much out of the verses (no doubt a Rock influence). Coffee Girl is a great, simple, poppy Hip song in the same vein as Ahead By a Century, but is almost completely ruined by the crappy drum track and ridiculous horns. The only tracks on this disc that they got bang-on are Morning Moon, The Depression Suite (easily one of the best Hip tunes recorded in the past 10 years), and Love is a First (not because it's that great a song, but because it simply is what it is capable of being, and wouldn't have sounded any better with better production values).

I listen to most of these songs and imagine what they'd sound like if they were stripped down a bit to their 'Hip' essence, and I think almost all of them would be great. In fact, the reason I've decided this is such a solid album is that there's only one song on it I can't stand - Frozen in My Tracks, which would be a terrible tune on any record by any artist). Who knows, maybe WATS will one day get the Let It Be treatment and go 'Naked'?

Bottom line is this album was released because the guys thought it was amazing and probably the best work they have ever done (and I agree). Not because of Bob Rocks work on it or his influence on the band. The band doesn't look at this site and they don't care what anyone on here thinks. They released a collection of songs that they felt were stellar and that's al that matters IMO. If you don't like it that's fine but don't blame Bob Rock.

Bob Rock didn't create these songs, the guys in the band did, the end result of the songs is ultimately what the guys wanted to release. If they didn't like what Bob was doing they would say "we don't like that, let's try something different".

So anyone who thinks it is Rock that "ruined things" needs to get their heads out of their ass.

They are not young guys anymore, i don't want to see Gord doing the same old thing on stage, its gotten tired, that is why what they are doing on this tour is so great, Gord is singing again, they are slowing it down and mixing it up. Inch and hour and emperor penguin in the same show.... are you kidding me!!!! I've been waiting a long time to see that... and I wasn't their!!!!

bobrockruinedthehip cleary wants to hear Road Apples part deux.

neilf Wrote:This is exactly what I've thought each time I've listened to this album. WATS is light years better than WC, which was a mediocre Hip album buried under the full assault of a Bob Rock production crapfest. For my money, WATS is a very good Hip album, buried under a little too much Bob Rock excess baggage. Country Day is an amazing tune, but is slightly ruined by the way Gord forces too much out of the verses (no doubt a Rock influence). Coffee Girl is a great, simple, poppy Hip song in the same vein as Ahead By a Century, but is almost completely ruined by the crappy drum track and ridiculous horns. The only tracks on this disc that they got bang-on are Morning Moon, The Depression Suite (easily one of the best Hip tunes recorded in the past 10 years), and Love is a First (not because it's that great a song, but because it simply is what it is capable of being, and wouldn't have sounded any better with better production values).

I listen to most of these songs and imagine what they'd sound like if they were stripped down a bit to their 'Hip' essence, and I think almost all of them would be great. In fact, the reason I've decided this is such a solid album is that there's only one song on it I can't stand - Frozen in My Tracks, which would be a terrible tune on any record by any artist). Who knows, maybe WATS will one day get the Let It Be treatment and go 'Naked'?

It's funny because I feel the exact opposite. Coffee Girl may well be the worst Hip song ever written, and I LOVE Frozen. I think WC is a better album than WATS; I basically skip tracks 3-6 on WATS and I've never had to do that with any Hip album. Although I must admit it would be interesting to hear WATS "naked".

Phantom51 Wrote:Bottom line is this album was released because the guys thought it was amazing and probably the best work they have ever done...

They may very well think that about WATS, but you don't actually think that this is how the music industry works, do you? This album was released, whether or not the boys in the Hip love or hate it, because the band had a contractual obligation to release a new album.

Phantom51 Wrote:Bottom line is this album was released because the guys thought it was amazing and probably the best work they have ever done (and I agree). Not because of Bob Rocks work on it or his influence on the band. The band doesn't look at this site and they don't care what anyone on here thinks. They released a collection of songs that they felt were stellar and that's al that matters IMO. If you don't like it that's fine but don't blame Bob Rock.

Bob Rock didn't create these songs, the guys in the band did, the end result of the songs is ultimately what the guys wanted to release. If they didn't like what Bob was doing they would say "we don't like that, let's try something different".

I agree with you to a point. Yes, it's the guys in the band who wrote these songs, as they're the only ones with songwriting credits on the album. The Hip are a veteran band who most likely have the final say in how the album ends up sounding once they're finished. But to think that Bob Rock didn't have an influence on the band is just naive. Gord himself has repeatedly talked about how Bob pushed/challenged him in the studio in terms of his singing...and I believe it was Bob's idea to string the three songs together that eventually became the Depression Suite. And I'm guessing that the strings and trumpet solos were also Bob's idea. I imagine the band probably thought about it and said, "sure, let's give it a try." These guys are 20 years into their career and they've been making records for a long time, so they were probably very open to new ideas and experiments in the studio, and welcomed any input that Bob may have had. Just listening to the slick production on the last two albums, you can tell they both have that "Bob Rock" stamp on them. This doesn't bother me as much as it does other people on here, as I absolutely adore both albums, and personally I think the extra layers actually enhance some of the material on WATS. If they had written a bunch of up-tempo guitar-heavy rock tunes, then yeah-- the strings, trumpets, and layered vocals would probably be detrimental to the songs. But on this particular album I think it works well given the nature of the material. Anyways, bottom line is the dude obviously had an influence on them in terms of production and instrumentation.

Quote:Bottom line is this album was released because the guys thought it was amazing and probably the best work they have ever done (and I agree). Not because of Bob Rocks work on it or his influence on the band. The band doesn't look at this site and they don't care what anyone on here thinks. They released a collection of songs that they felt were stellar and that's al that matters IMO. If you don't like it that's fine but don't blame Bob Rock.

Bob Rock didn't create these songs, the guys in the band did, the end result of the songs is ultimately what the guys wanted to release. If they didn't like what Bob was doing they would say "we don't like that, let's try something different".

So anyone who thinks it is Rock that "ruined things" needs to get their heads out of their ass.

They are not young guys anymore, i don't want to see Gord doing the same old thing on stage, its gotten tired, that is why what they are doing on this tour is so great, Gord is singing again, they are slowing it down and mixing it up. Inch and hour and emperor penguin in the same show.... are you kidding me!!!! I've been waiting a long time to see that... and I wasn't their!!!!

bobrockruinedthehip cleary wants to hear Road Apples part deux.

A band of the Hips stature is ultimately responsible for the final product. There wasn't a record executive telling them that they must use Rock or this album wasn't getting made. Additionally, Rock didn't hold a gun to their head and force them to do anything they didn't want to do. That being said, Rock's trade mark production is all over this album. He is not a minor influence in its creation, but a major force. In the end you cannot separate production from lyrics, vocals, guitars, etc. For WATS to be a great album it must work as a whole and on truly great albums, like DFN, a Gestalt effect is created that elevates the music to something extraordinary. Morning Moon gives us an all to brief taste of what this album might have been if it had been produced in a more understated fashion. I believe there is truly a great album buried under under all that "Rock". Bottom line: the Hip is responsible for hiring the producer, but the producer's influence ruined the album.

As for wanting to hear "Road Apples part deux," I don't need the Hip to recreate their youth, but I do need them to create something worth listening to. Change is fine as long as the product is good. In the end, WATS has more in common with Chris Cornell's Scream than Radiohead's OK Computer. By all means, change, evolve, move forward, but please just do it well.

bobrockruinedthehip Wrote:In the end, WATS has more in common with Chris Cornell's Scream than Radiohead's OK Computer.

Blasphemy! I understand why you don't dig WATS, and that's cool. But comparing it to Chris Cornell's vomit-inducing piece of crap solo album? Seriously?? You sir have crossed the line.

:rambo:

Quote:Blasphemy! I understand why you don't dig WATS, and that's cool. But comparing it to Chris Cornell's vomit-inducing piece of crap solo album? Seriously?? You sir have crossed the line.

Both of the albums I cite are departures from the respective artists previous work. Change can be done well and maybe even in ground breaking fashion, as in the case of OK Computer, or change can be a complete disaster and possibly destroy an artist's reputation, as in the case of Scream. OK Computer and Scream represent polar opposites on the change continuum. WATS is light years better than Scream, but as far an artistic shift that "works", it definitely shares more in common with Cornell's misguided offering than Radiohead's breakthrough effort. A comparison can certainly be drawn between Rock and Timberland and the responsibility they share in their respective artists' failed attempt to evolve.

The good news is Ragged Glory was released after Trans and Death Magnet was released after St. Anger. Hopefully the Hip will follow a similar path.

bobrockruinedthehip Wrote:The good news is Ragged Glory was released after Trans and Death Magnet was released after St. Anger. Hopefully the Hip will follow a similar path.

1. Ragged Glory followed Freedom
2. Your Hipbase name is obnoxious regardless of your opinion

"Additionally, Rock didn't hold a gun to their head and force them to do anything they didn't want to do."

I've been saying they should hire phil spektor for months now!

Quote:1. Ragged Glory followed Freedom
2. Your Hipbase name is obnoxious regardless of your opinion

1. I am aware Ragged Glory followed Freedom. Obviously, If I thought redemption could only be achieved when a better album follows directly after a poor one, then I would have already given up on the Hip based on WC and then WATS (two very poor albums in a row). A good album can come along at any moment in a career and it need not be the next release.

2. From earlier in the thread:

Quote:lol best screen name on here

It is clear that I'm not alone in my dislike for the Rock/Hip collaboration. Additionally, I am not a Rock hater. I think he did a spectacular job with Offspring's latest release. The Offspring's style, vocals, instrumentation work well with heavy production. The Hip, not so much and therefore the screen name which accurately reflects my feelings on the collaboration.

Quote:I've been saying they should hire phil spektor for months now!

Given the Hips new found love of production, Phil and his Wall of Sound might be a nice fit. However, he probably won't be able to bring his gun to the sessions given his new home.

Fair enough - I was tired this morning - late night early kids combo.
You can't love em all and there ain't no problem with that.
Now if Neil could bring out a good album again that would be great. He's had some good songs since Sleeps With Angels but nothing stellar in any way. Kind of like the 80s string of album but instead of trying out new things he has aimed for bland uninteresting tunes.

sherpa Wrote:Fair enough - I was tired this morning - late night early kids combo.
You can't love em all and there ain't no problem with that.
Now if Neil could bring out a good album again that would be great. He's had some good songs since Sleeps With Angels but nothing stellar in any way. Kind of like the 80s string of album but instead of trying out new things he has aimed for bland uninteresting tunes.

Define "stellar".

I think the following are good albums:

Mirror Ball
Silver and Gold
Prairie Wind
Living With War (I think I'm in the minority with this one but I actually do like it)

I do agree that he has never matched the greatness of his 70's music. His newest album is pretty bad (sorry Neil).

Couple of points:

Has anyone that claims to hate WATS actually seen it preformed live yet? I think (as all HIP) the songs are better once you hear them live. I didn't like Frozen until I went to the Philly show....turns out it is a great live tune.

WC was also a great Album(IMO). Too bad "Music Lovers" don't feel the same.

I have come to love WATS(didn't at first), and am looking forward to Artpark. :music