tigerthelion Wrote:his team is stacked with high priced talent EVERY SEASON!
Just because they're high priced doesn't mean they're the best. Come on, you should know that being a Nucks fan. That isn't Torre's fault.. maybe you should take some of the criticism you're throwing at Torre and direct it at Brian Cashman and George Steinbrenner. They're the ones who over pay for players and bring the guys in. Jarret Wright? Kevin Brown? Carl Pavano? Mike Mussina? That looks like a pretty ace staff over the past few years to me :roll: How could they not win the world series with high priced talent like that?
tigerthelion Wrote:Torre's not an idiot. Torre has no honour. He's the only manager on the universe who would turn down a 5 mill/year + incentives contract and call it "insulting". What, were poor Torre's feelings hurt? Boo hoo.
Out of curiousity, what do you do for a living? I'd like to know how you'd react if you were one of the all time greats at your job, and management told you to take a paycut.
Despite your assertion that you could manage a professional baseball team, somehow I'm guessing that's not what you do.
cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:Torre's not an idiot. Torre has no honour. He's the only manager on the universe who would turn down a 5 mill/year + incentives contract and call it "insulting". What, were poor Torre's feelings hurt? Boo hoo.
Out of curiousity, what do you do for a living? I'd like to know how you'd react if you were one of the all time greats at your job, and management told you to take a paycut.
Despite your assertion that you could manage a professional baseball team, somehow I'm guessing that's not what you do.
Torre hasn't done crap in years. Why shouldn't he get a paycut? If my production goes down at my job, I get a paycut. What did Torre expect? A raise? What about all the managers who were fired without even being given a chance. This pity party for Torre is astonishing. I'm glad that you feel bad for Torre though. I feel bad for people who actually have a tough time and are treated unfairly. Torre has never been treated unfairly. I hope he is out of baseball for good. The guy is getting outmanaged left and right and people still hold him in high regard. It's truly fascinating.
BTW, a paycut for Torre is still money that most managers never dream of. Torre would walk over his mother for money. I can only dream of getting a "paycut" like that. The guy was overpaid to begin with.
On to the playoffs- after the Indians lost game 5 I had a bad feeling. Looks like my gut feeling was right. The Indians need a miracle now. I'm not expecting one but will be happy if it happens. Simply put, Carmona, Hafner, and Sabathia all choked under the big lights. The Tribe shouldn't give in to Sabathia if he has ridiculous contract demands. He might win the Cy Young and had a great regular season but the real "money" players show up in the playoffs.
The highest paid pitcher in baseball should be Josh Beckett, bar none.
I have to admit that this is a verve wracking time to be a Sox fan. As much as I love the 12-2 momentum we have going into Game 7 *at* Fenway, I have very little faith in Dice K. This is where he has to step up to that plate and prove he's worth his paycheck. I mean, really, if J.D. Drew can transform into a clutch player overnight...surely Matsuzaka can pitch a decent 6 innings...right?
Either way, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
-Jenna
Jenna_Bird Wrote:I have to admit that this is a verve wracking time to be a Sox fan. As much as I love the 12-2 momentum we have going into Game 7 *at* Fenway, I have very little faith in Dice K. This is where he has to step up to that plate and prove he's worth his paycheck. I mean, really, if J.D. Drew can transform into a clutch player overnight...surely Matsuzaka can pitch a decent 6 innings...right?
Either way, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
-Jenna
I'm hoping Dice K chokes like a fat guy chokes on a rice ball in a Japanese restaurant :lol: :lol: I'm crossing my fingers, coz after the last two games, Westbrook needs to have an absolutely on game. Truth be told, I'd almost rather see Byrd up there than Westbrook, but pitching Byrd on 4 days rest is rather dicey.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO RED SOX!! :thumb:
VioletlightHeron Wrote:So the Reds hired Dusty Baker as manager. I think the Reds made a good choice from the candidates available, although I wonder why they didnt just wait till after the playoffs were over and a wider pool of candidates was available. What are your thoughts on this, Ethete?
I've never liked Dusty Baker as a manager. I think he has a bit of an ego problem, and I always thought his season-long handling of pitching staffs was shoddy and his in-game handling of pitching staffs was abysmal. And he's a reknowned "player's manager" which is something that doesn't bode well for this organization at present, either, imo. I must say I cursed at the television at the top of my lungs when I heard the Reds were going to hire him.
I'd rather they hired somebody like Joe Girardi, but apparently, they began negotiating with Baker clear back in July, so they apparently had their hearts set on Dusty.
On the bright side, Baker has the best credentials as an MLB field manager of any the Reds have EVER brought in for the job (from a winning and postseason-appearance standpoint), so at least there's that. And Dusty himself claims he can lure veteran free agents better than most, so we'll see how that goes for him (I don't think he realizes what it takes to convince free agent pitchers to want to come to come pitch half their games in Great American Bomb Park).
I guess I have to put my personal feelings aside and wait to see if he can truly succeed with this bunch. But my initial reaction is one of disdain, I can tell you that....
cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:Torre hasn't done crap in years.
Wow.
When is the last time the Yankees made it out of the first round of the playoffs? With the roster the Yankees have year in and year out, I don't consider it much of an accomplishment just to make the playoffs. But, I'm sure most other fans are much more easily impressed than me.
"You can't take credit for success when you're going good, and then not take at least some of the blame when things change," Steinbrenner told the paper."
tigerthelion Wrote:cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:Torre hasn't done crap in years.
Wow.
When is the last time the Yankees made it out of the first round of the playoffs? With the roster the Yankees have year in and year out, I don't consider it much of an accomplishment just to make the playoffs. But, I'm sure most other fans are much more easily impressed than me.
"You can't take credit for success when you're going good, and then not take at least some of the blame when things change," Steinbrenner told the paper."
I don't mean to pile on, tiger, but... with the pitching roster the Yankees have had the last few years, it is a minor miracle that they never missed the playoffs in any of those years. Yet it was only this year that new blood came into the pitching staff via their young players like Hughes and Chamberlain. Yes their awesome offense helped mask those pitching problems sometimes in the regular season, but you have to admit that since about 2003 or so Yankees pitching has basically sucked. Yet they still made it to the playoffs all those years. Who gets, or should get, the credit for taking a very flawed team into the playoffs all of those years? Torre. And the fact that they couldn't advance in the playoffs or win the World Series should not be completely his fault either. Playoff series are often crapshoots, and the real weakness of teams get exposed. In those years, the Yankees pitching was their Achilles' heel, and it got them knocked out of the playoffs. Is this Torre's fault? No. He didn't put the roster together, Cashman and Steinbrenner did. He had to work with what they gave him, and he did the best job he could. You want to blame anyone for not winning those World Series, blame Cashman for not getting enough pitching and blame Steinbrenner for creating unrealistic expectations year after year. Don't blame Torre, he overachieved just by getting those flawed teams in the playoffs in the first place.
And yes of course $5 million is huge money, more than we could ever dream of... but when you have done a good job or even overachieved at work and then the boss comes in and tells you to take a 30% cut or leave it, then let me know how much you would like that. I'm not going to say I feel sorry for Joe Torre... he's made more money and had more success at a dream job than most other people. But I am going to say the Steinbrenners screwed him over by this manoeuvering. They should have given him a proper contract or "manned" up and fired him if they thought he was so poor at his job.
j-monster Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:cferneyh Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:Torre hasn't done crap in years.
Wow.
When is the last time the Yankees made it out of the first round of the playoffs? With the roster the Yankees have year in and year out, I don't consider it much of an accomplishment just to make the playoffs. But, I'm sure most other fans are much more easily impressed than me.
"You can't take credit for success when you're going good, and then not take at least some of the blame when things change," Steinbrenner told the paper."
I don't mean to pile on, tiger, but... with the pitching roster the Yankees have had the last few years, it is a minor miracle that they never missed the playoffs in any of those years. Yet it was only this year that new blood came into the pitching staff via their young players like Hughes and Chamberlain. Yes their awesome offense helped mask those pitching problems sometimes in the regular season, but you have to admit that since about 2003 or so Yankees pitching has basically sucked. Yet they still made it to the playoffs all those years. Who gets, or should get, the credit for taking a very flawed team into the playoffs all of those years? Torre. And the fact that they couldn't advance in the playoffs or win the World Series should not be completely his fault either. Playoff series are often crapshoots, and the real weakness of teams get exposed. In those years, the Yankees pitching was their Achilles' heel, and it got them knocked out of the playoffs. Is this Torre's fault? No. He didn't put the roster together, Cashman and Steinbrenner did. He had to work with what they gave him, and he did the best job he could. You want to blame anyone for not winning those World Series, blame Cashman for not getting enough pitching and blame Steinbrenner for creating unrealistic expectations year after year. Don't blame Torre, he overachieved just by getting those flawed teams in the playoffs in the first place.
And yes of course $5 million is huge money, more than we could ever dream of... but when you have done a good job or even overachieved at work and then the boss comes in and tells you to take a 30% cut or leave it, then let me know how much you would like that. I'm not going to say I feel sorry for Joe Torre... he's made more money and had more success at a dream job than most other people. But I am going to say the Steinbrenners screwed him over by this manoeuvering. They should have given him a proper contract or "manned" up and fired him if they thought he was so poor at his job.
Since when has Torre overachieved?
cratch:
For all you Torre apologists, read this article without letting bias get in the way:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/10/23/scoop.tuesday/index.html">http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/w ... index.html</a><!-- m -->
...Or you can all continue believe Torre's sentiments that he was suprised at the contract offer and "insulted".
Torre is "classy" in the same way that George Foreman is a "good guy".
opiated Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:emperor penguin Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:I see that Torre turned down a one year 5 million dollar offer. My guess is that he wants more money. He should just retire.
He didn't turn it down because of the money but because of the principle. The Yankees didn't want him to come back or else they wouldn't have offered him a pay cut and only a one year deal. The offer was set up for him to turn it down and he knew that. Torre's not an idiot.
He turned it down because of money. Torre has no honour. He's the only manager on the universe who would turn down a 5 mill/year + incentives contract and call it "insulting". Torre was overpaid at 7 million/year. Why shouldn't Torre be given a pay cut? His team hasn't done jacksquat in years and his team is stacked with high priced talent EVERY SEASON! With the way Torre has managed the past few seasons, he should feel lucky to be offered so much money.
What, were poor Torre's feelings hurt? Boo hoo. If he can sit back and accept all the praise thrown his way, maybe he should learn how to take a little criticism.
I could have managed the NY Yankees for ten years and would have won at least one ring! :rambo:
for what he's done for that organization over the years, yeah.it was an insult..sometimes, you just don't get it do you
Sorry opiated. I don't worship the ground Torre walks on. I guess I don't get it. Since you know Torre personally and know that he's all class, I'll just take your word for it. :rambo:
tigerthelion Wrote:opiated Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:emperor penguin Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:I see that Torre turned down a one year 5 million dollar offer. My guess is that he wants more money. He should just retire.
He didn't turn it down because of the money but because of the principle. The Yankees didn't want him to come back or else they wouldn't have offered him a pay cut and only a one year deal. The offer was set up for him to turn it down and he knew that. Torre's not an idiot.
He turned it down because of money. Torre has no honour. He's the only manager on the universe who would turn down a 5 mill/year + incentives contract and call it "insulting". Torre was overpaid at 7 million/year. Why shouldn't Torre be given a pay cut? His team hasn't done jacksquat in years and his team is stacked with high priced talent EVERY SEASON! With the way Torre has managed the past few seasons, he should feel lucky to be offered so much money.
What, were poor Torre's feelings hurt? Boo hoo. If he can sit back and accept all the praise thrown his way, maybe he should learn how to take a little criticism.
I could have managed the NY Yankees for ten years and would have won at least one ring! :rambo:
for what he's done for that organization over the years, yeah.it was an insult..sometimes, you just don't get it do you
Sorry opiated. I don't worship the ground Torre walks on. I guess I don't get it. Since you know Torre personally and know that he's all class, I'll just take your word for it. :rambo:
missed my point completly...you're gettin good at that lately...have you had a blow to the head lately?
opiated Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:opiated Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:emperor penguin Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:I see that Torre turned down a one year 5 million dollar offer. My guess is that he wants more money. He should just retire.
He didn't turn it down because of the money but because of the principle. The Yankees didn't want him to come back or else they wouldn't have offered him a pay cut and only a one year deal. The offer was set up for him to turn it down and he knew that. Torre's not an idiot.
He turned it down because of money. Torre has no honour. He's the only manager on the universe who would turn down a 5 mill/year + incentives contract and call it "insulting". Torre was overpaid at 7 million/year. Why shouldn't Torre be given a pay cut? His team hasn't done jacksquat in years and his team is stacked with high priced talent EVERY SEASON! With the way Torre has managed the past few seasons, he should feel lucky to be offered so much money.
What, were poor Torre's feelings hurt? Boo hoo. If he can sit back and accept all the praise thrown his way, maybe he should learn how to take a little criticism.
I could have managed the NY Yankees for ten years and would have won at least one ring! :rambo:
for what he's done for that organization over the years, yeah.it was an insult..sometimes, you just don't get it do you
Sorry opiated. I don't worship the ground Torre walks on. I guess I don't get it. Since you know Torre personally and know that he's all class, I'll just take your word for it. :rambo:
missed my point completly...you're gettin good at that lately...have you had a blow to the head lately?
No, no blows...not to the head anyway.... :oops: I used to disagree with you plenty of times before without you accusing me of "not getting it". That, I find strange.
tigerthelion Wrote:For all you Torre apologists, read this article without letting bias get in the way:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/10/23/scoop.tuesday/index.html">http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/w ... index.html</a><!-- m -->
Article? Hardly. It's an opinion piece by a guy who shares your opinion that Torre should have taken whatever was offered to him. Let's look at the "sources":
- as one Yankees official noted
- according to people familiar with those talks
- The belief here
- I do believe
- As one Yankees underling said
- Another official said
So we've apparently got a bunch of quotes from unnamed Yankee sources and the writer's opinion, and he admits that he thinks Torre should have been fired last year. Yeah, that's a great unbiased find.
Look, I loathe the Yankees as much as any other sane person, but let's accept the facts here. Torre did a helluva job with that team, and if Yankees management had any balls, they would have fired him rather than tell him to take a paycut.
And I'm still waiting to hear what industry you work in tiger - I'm curious to know how your pay gets cut if your production goes down. Do you sell vacuums door to door?