PunBB

grimes Wrote:Nice to see the Jays' bats finally come to life tonight. After being down 8-1 at one point, they put up six runs in the bottom of the ninth to win it 12-11, with the winning run coming on a bases-loaded walk. It makes up for a sketchy outing by Roy Halladay, who pitched pretty similar to the way he did in the two starts before he went down with his appendix problem. Makes one wonder if there isn't something else wrong with him health-wise...

I turned the game off when they were down 11-8 in the 9th when Vernon came up thinking th game was over, needless to say I was pretty shocked to see the score on Sportcentre this morning. Also, Matt Stairs has been playing great, makes me feel a little better about how much they are paying Frank Thomas for his shitfest this year, essentially they're getting their money's worth because they're paying Stairs peanuts and he's doing what Thomas should be doing.

Congrats to Frank Thomas for finally getting home run number 500. Not exactly nice work blowing the game by the rest of the team though.

so is anyone else still watching?


you guys like Barry Bonds? or do you like BASEBALL ? j/k...

seriously though...this thread's been dead for a while (or at least a little tired), BUMP!


so let's pick up where we left off...much has changed!

Thomas has finally started to do what the Jays envisioned him doing all along...too little too lat e though perhaps, all though Burnette is back, so we'll see if that can help them make a push fo the postseason...they do have a good squad, it just might be too much ground for them to make up in too short a time now though...

and while we're on the subject of makin up ground...I'm happy to see my bombers finally playing like they're capable of...Giambi's looked fierce at the plate since returning...Mussina, Pettitte, and Clemens are all looking like their usual selves...Wang has been good again this year, hopefully he can rebound tonight after a tough outing last start...i think he will, he's one of the best in the game today IMO...Cano's having yet another really impressive campaign, Cabrerra looks even better than last year, and Hughes was amazing in his last start...if he can keep that up, LOOK OUT AL! Jose Molina has been doing a good job for them too so far...Phillips and Duncan have both come in and done really well too when called upon...i never doubted that they could turn it around before things got too far out of reach...and they're not letting me down...it's looking like it's gonna be one REALLY REALLY exciting last month and a half of Baseball ahead...the games against Boston are going to be HUGE! not to mention the games against Detroit and Seattle too!

Still watching indeed...but as a Jays' fan this has been a frustrating season. I'm not buying the bs JP is selling with regards to blaming injuries for the fact that they aren't in the playoff race. The fact is that some of the players that have filled in as injury replacements have been among their best performers. Their pitching staff, both starters and bullpen, have far exceeded my expectations of them to this point. The offence on the other hand, has been pathetic. The guys they are paying the big bucks for (Wells, Glaus, Thomas, and Overbay, to name four) have all under-performed. As a team, they just seem to lack a winning attitude; losses don't seem to particularly bother them, and anytime they have a chance to go on a decent run, there's just no killer instinct. I suppose the blame for this has to fall on the manager, and if another year of not being in contention is what it takes to get rid of John Gibbons, then this year will not have been a complete waste.

[/rant]


As for the rest of the league, I'm impressed that the Yanks have closed the gap on the Red Sox as much as they have. Before the all star break most people had already given Boston the AL East title, and now it's actually starting to get interesting. The AL Central race should be a good one down to the wire too...

I think the Rick Ankiel story has been pretty damn cool. Talk about being a natural athlete.

grimes Wrote:The AL Central race should be a good one down to the wire too...

Yep. Looking forward to playing spoiler in KC, where the Royals are quietly turning things around -- 41-39 in their last 80 games.

sullivand Wrote:

grimes Wrote:The AL Central race should be a good one down to the wire too...

Yep. Looking forward to playing spoiler in KC, where the Royals are quietly turning things around -- 41-39 in their last 80 games.

Indeed, KC can no longer claim title to the worst MLB team, that honor goes to Tampa Bay :lol:

I just hope that KC doesnt spoil Cleveland's chances for the division title, given the fact that they have 9 more games against KC, 6 on the road (where we are truly sucking) and also have to play better against Detroit.

The other division battle I'm watching intensely is the NL Central race, where the division title may be won by the team that screws up less. Man, the Brewers looked like they were going to lock up the title at the All-Star Break

Oh, and Esthete, thanks again for trading Braun to me :thumb: :lol: :lol:

i think both riccardi and gibbons need to go...the whole signing of thomas was ridiculous, the jays dont need three guys to hit 40 homers and 100 rbi (thomas, wells, glaus), spend the money on pitching...the jays are nowhere near ready to contend...the whole issue when delgado left and they got nothing in return was insane, at least get some picks or prospects...the only smart thing riccardi has ever done is not trading rios away...they need to think back of when this team won championships, they had a core of people who could put up runs without homeruns (alomar, olerud, molitor/winfield) even carter only hit 34 hrs in his best yr with the jays...they need a true leadoff hitter, a consistent .300 average person just to get on base and keep rios, wells and overbay for driving in runs, and at least one more proven consistent starting pitcher...as for gibbons he needs to be fired...there was a game a few weeks ago that was tied in either the 9th inning or extras where they had a runner on first nobody out, the logical play is to bunt to move the runner into scoring position and give two people chances at hitting a single, but gibbons lets them swing and they ground out into a double play, and they next guy flies out...this has happened countless times where they just give up chances in the hope that someone will hit a homerun...sorry i just had to get this out

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:Wang has been good again this year.....he's one of the best in the game today IMO

Really? On what do you base your opinion? His 19 wins in 2006?

I take one look at his 'run support' and see that those 19 wins in 2006 are attributable in large part to having his team score 6.32 for him per 9 innings (14th highest in the majors). And his 13 wins thus far in 2007 is even more attributable to run support (7.00 / 9 INN), as his overall performance this year has been 'fair' at best.

The only thing I can see that one might use as a basis for the argument that Wang is "good" at all is his 2006 ERA of 3.63 (16th in the majors amongst all pitchers with at least 160 IP).

Otherwise, his overall effectiveness has been nothing more than 'fair'. His 2007 ERA is 4.09 (49th amongst MLB pitchers with a minimum of 100 IP).

Look at these other important pitching stats, and see where he ranks:

___________2006 (Rank)*____2007 (Rank)**____________

WHIP--------- 1.31 (36th)-------------- 1.30 (40th)
K/BB---------- 1.46 (78th)-------------- 1.86 (69th)
K/9------------ 3.14 (84th)***--------- 4.27 (100th)
BAA----------- .277 (58th)-------------- .275 (64th)
QS%---------- 0.55 (45th)-------------- 0.59 (45th)

* amongst MLB pitchers with a minimum of 160 IP
** amongst MLB pitchers with a minimum of 100 IP
*** WORST IN MLB

Quote:K/9------------ 3.14 (84th)***--------- 4.27 (100th)

i can not debate whether Wang is one of MLB's best but he is vital to the Yanks success this year. What can be said that K's are stat the is used against Wang to say that he is not an effective pitcher but IMHO K's are over rated in Wangs case. ERA is more important in his, even with Jeter's pitiful range to his left.

Wang is a sinker ball pitcher and he is using he defense to get outs. In a best case scenario he would need only 3 pitches to get out of the inning where as a K pitcher would need 9. In short hopefully less pitches, more innings etc

What Wang needs to become a better pitcher is an "out pitch" and hopefully Old Man Summer can teach him Mr Splitty as Wang does top out around 95.

As things are looking now, Wang could be the #3 pitcher on the Yanks next year behind Hughes and Joba. Pettit would be the #4 if he decides to play again. 1-5 all homegrown (#5 could be Karstens, Clippard or DeSalvo). Not too bad for a team that buy championships. It would only leave LF, RF and DH and the only spots not homegrown with the current signings under contract for 08

mikeysaint Wrote:

Quote:K/9------------ 3.14 (84th)***--------- 4.27 (100th)

i can not debate whether Wang is one of MLB's best but he is vital to the Yanks success this year. What can be said that K's are stat the is used against Wang to say that he is not an effective pitcher but IMHO K's are over rated in Wangs case. ERA is more important in his, even with Jeter's pitiful range to his left.

Wang is a sinker ball pitcher and he is using he defense to get outs. In a best case scenario he would need only 3 pitches to get out of the inning where as a K pitcher would need 9. In short hopefully less pitches, more innings etc

Your defense of Wang in terms pitches per inning (he averages 14.4, which is 4th fewest amongst MLB pitchers with at least 100 IP) seems legit; theoretically, he should see the benefit of a stronger, fresher arm down the stretch (though last 2 starts certainly don't support that premise at all).

And while it's true that K's aren't the beginning and end of a pitcher's effectiveness, I don't need to go into detail how important they can be to long-term success. For the team in the field, a strikeout is the greatest out of all within any singular baseball game.

No pitcher with a K/9 of less than 5.0 will ever be on my list of "best in the game" to say the least.

The two most important pitching stats, imo, are WHIP & BAA. And at 1.29 and .271, respectively (career), he's just not worthy of being considered "among the best" by any stretch. Many pitchers have similar numbers.

mikeysaint Wrote:What Wang needs to become a better pitcher is an "out pitch" and hopefully Old Man Summer can teach him Mr Splitty as Wang does top out around 95.

I agree wholeheartedly. Personally, I'm just not a fan of anyone who relies strictly on the sinker. You either need a FB in the the upper '90s, a splitter, a wicked cutter, a great change, or a nasty breaking ball to go with it in order to be dominant.

VioletlightHeron Wrote:Oh, and Esthete, thanks again for trading Braun to me

:nooooo

I'm going to predict right now that I'm going to lose the lead in the standings before the regular season ends, and lose in the first round of the playoffs. Trading you Braun (that kid is sick), and dumping G. Atkins early turned out to be two boneheaded moves.

Getting a weeeeaaak pitching staff in the draft didn't help, either. Streaming pitchers is fun, but terribly unreliable. :roll:

The Horrible Esthete Wrote:

VioletlightHeron Wrote:Oh, and Esthete, thanks again for trading Braun to me

:nooooo

I'm going to predict right now that I'm going to lose the lead in the standings before the regular season ends, and lose in the first round of the playoffs. Trading you Braun (that kid is sick), and dumping G. Atkins early turned out to be two boneheaded moves.

Getting a weeeeaaak pitching staff in the draft didn't help, either. Streaming pitchers is fun, but terribly unreliable. :roll:

Drafting pitchers is always a crap shoot. If you look at the starting pitchers I drafted (Liriano, Capuano, Verlander, Robertson, Glavine), one had his season end even before it began, the other had a great 5 game winning streak to start the season and hasnt won since, and Robertson has been maddeningly inconsistent. Just scrolling back through all the dogs I picked off the waiver wire has me cringing (Woody Williams, Jorge Julio*double yikes*, Kevin Millwood, Zach Greinke, etc etc). If there is a patron saint for keeping your pitching staff healthy and consistent, I've been praying at that altar all year long! :lol: :lol:

Wang gets the job done, and winning is the ONLY thing...in ANY sport.

cferneyh Wrote:I think the Rick Ankiel story has been pretty damn cool. Talk about being a natural athlete.

No joke. Being a relative newbie to the city, I didn't know what everyone was so excited about...and then I learned his story. What a comeback - and moving from the mound to right field. Man. And he's been a homerun machine since coming back up. What a fantastic story.

The Horrible Esthete Wrote:And while it's true that K's aren't the beginning and end of a pitcher's effectiveness, I don't need to go into detail how important they can be to long-term success. For the team in the field, a strikeout is the greatest out of all within any singular baseball game.

I agree with you about Wang not being anything too special, but with respect to the importance of the strikeout, I point to Roy Halladay as evidence that you don't need to rely on the K to be a great pitcher. Tonight for example, he threw 99 pitches for a complete game, 5-hitter, in the Jays' 4-1 win over the Angels. He only struck out two, with 13 ground outs, and 11 fly outs, which is pretty much business as usual for him. Of course, part of what makes him a great pitcher is that he does know how to get a K when he needs one, but his bread & butter is the first-pitch ground out.