PunBB

Some nice reflections about their recent work popping up here. I'll just chip in...

I rate IBE as one of their best records, and therefore disagree that it has a lot of "filler." I hear no filler on there at all, and find the lyrics to be among Gord's sharpest. My theory about why that album gets so little love is that the "indie" production values combine with two problematic opening tracks to turn people off. ('Heaven' is the weakest cut on the album; and while I love the clattering madness of 'Summer is Killing Us,' there's no denying that it's got a crazy, ungainly structure, which is part of its charm for me, but I can see where it alienates people). But obviously some listeners just think the songs aren't there - and i just don't get how anyone can think 'You're Everywhere' or 'Gus' or 'Mean Streak' or 'Makeshift' (to name a few) are not excellent compositions. To each their own, I suppose...

WATS, to my ear, was a step up from the bloated, tasteless grotesquerie of the disastrous WC. But then again, I love 'Coffee Girl,' a catchy pop tune that tells a focused, meaningful little story and marks a nice sonic move from the band's staple sound. I hate the way that song gets grief from Hip fans - it seems to be a scapegoat for a wider complaint about later-era Hip. I also think 'Morning Moon' is an absolutely grade-A cut and don't understand the lukewarm attitude towards that one either. That said, there IS a lot of skippable stuff on WATS (and I never got the Depression Suite, which is just a sustained exercise in boredom in my book). It's at best a mixed bag, but still a huge improvement on its unlistenable predecessor.

On the lyrics on 'Plan A,' well, repetition is part of popular music...complaining about 'drip drip drip' in particular seems a bit much. But there's no question that he took a minimalist approach to lyrics on that album. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I don't object to simplicity. Those songs have deep feeling behind them, an intelligent and impassioned pack of solid tunes.

As for MMP: it's good, but I don't love it as much as some - feeling that it's been overrated, especially relative to their other late-career work, because of the circumstances surrounding it. Part of the problem is that it has only nine songs on it ('Man' is not a song, it's a production - quite an unfortunate way to start the record). 'Great Soul' is another unlistenable POS, so now we're down to eight. I love 'Ocean Next,' 'Tired as Fuck,' and 'Machine,' but IMHO the album's problem is that its one really great song, 'In Sarnia,' is compromised by a bizarre vocal and intrusive production values. Don't get me wrong, it's a good record and I like it. I just feel like this is another case where I'm out of sync with general fan response, which always sort of bugs me

Moof_Milker Wrote:Take Forever, as an example, sounds so much better on vinyl.

I might need to give side B another few listens. Take Forever never really grew on me but maybe with some more listens.

Quote:I no longer rank it...or any album as my least favourite. For me, each album is like a chapter in my most favourite book. I'm grateful for it all! Don't get me wrong, like many of you here, I have very strong opinions on each album.

When the news broke last year, I listened to the entire discography a couple of times through (even the EP). Granted, the experience was coloured with the knowledge of Gord's diagnosis but I was just so grateful to have such an extensive catalog to go back to and listen to everything. There are definitely songs and albums I enjoy more than others but I am quite happy to listen to any of the albums in their entirety.

Shane

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:I rate IBE as one of their best records, and therefore disagree that it has a lot of "filler." I hear no filler on there at all, and find the lyrics to be among Gord's sharpest.

While I'm not a fan of the album as whole, I agree the lyrics are fantastic. Definitely some of Gord's best work.

Quote:That said, there IS a lot of skippable stuff on WATS (and I never got the Depression Suite, which is just a sustained exercise in boredom in my book).

I wasn't that keen on Depression Suite when I first heard the album version. But then I saw them play it live a couple times on that tour and it won me over. I thought the song was a lot punchier in concert, and I really enjoyed Jim Bryson's keyboard work.

World Container and WATS felt like the Hip going a bit more "mainstream" and polished in their sound. But I thought they pulled it off quite well. On those two records, there were some more accessible hits that could play great for the mainstream, like The Lonely End of the Rink, In View, Yer Not the Ocean, Coffee Girl, The Last Recluse, and more produced-sounding cuts like those. I liked those songs. But there were also some really heavy and gritty songs in there which I adored, like The Drop-Off, The Kids Don't Get It, Family Band, and Love is a First.

The Depression Suite was a song that straddled that mainstream and hardcore fan line in a bad way, IMO. It was too long to be appreciated by mainstream crowds, and it was too polished and had too much sheen for me to enjoy that much. I actually hated how it opened so many 09 shows. I gotta be honest, I think that song is the absolute worst on my list of all songs from WC and WATS. I can't think of a song below it. Even forgettable songs like Speed River and Pretend I think I prefer because at least they're shorter.

'The Last Recluse' is a masterful Hip song IMHO. So potent. And the idea of expressing loss via the metaphor of vanishing national icons is just classic Gord. It rates with 'Goodnight Atawapiskat' as a lost or overlooked CanCon masterpiece by the Hip.

Given my utter loathing of WC, I'm obviously not a Bob Rock fan. It's as if he brought out the absolutely worst, least tasteful elements of what the Hip do and foregrounded them. He even managed to partially f**k up 'The Drop Off,' which was as sure-fire a Hip song as has ever existed. But in fairness, I thought his production worked best on more relaxed numbers (the first four cuts of WATS all sound pretty good IMHO, and partially redeem what is a pretty mixed outing for me. 'Coffee Girl' sounds absolutely perfect for what it is; ditto 'Morning Moon,' one of their most sonically appealing recordings, to my ear. I would gobble up an entire album of that particular sound. And I'll give him this much - the vocal restraint he coaxed out of Gord was one of the best facets of WATS).

I was always surprised that that clown managed to oversee 'The Kids Don't Get It,' though - which actually sounds live and off-the-floor, and is a personal favourite of mine, given that I'm an educator 8)

I'm the opposite of some of the above - really like WC. It was a different approach for the band -using the studio as a tool vs a space - that they really revisited with MMP. To my ears, WATS was a bit too much polish. NFPA was back to more a live in studio approach. They did this a few times . DFN is a bit more of a studio album (I really imagine them recording this in dead on winter) and Trouble is much more live off the floor. They had an interesting choice of studio approaches and pruducers through their career, all with good results.

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:Some nice reflections about their recent work popping up here. I'll just chip in...

I rate IBE as one of their best records, and therefore disagree that it has a lot of "filler." I hear no filler on there at all, and find the lyrics to be among Gord's sharpest. My theory about why that album gets so little love is that the "indie" production values combine with two problematic opening tracks to turn people off. ('Heaven' is the weakest cut on the album; and while I love the clattering madness of 'Summer is Killing Us,' there's no denying that it's got a crazy, ungainly structure, which is part of its charm for me, but I can see where it alienates people). But obviously some listeners just think the songs aren't there - and i just don't get how anyone can think 'You're Everywhere' or 'Gus' or 'Mean Streak' or 'Makeshift' (to name a few) are not excellent compositions. To each their own, I suppose...

I'm a big fan of IBE as well. However, I don't believe the "indie" production values hurt the album. In fact, I would be in favour of the band making another record with Adam Kasper. Production-wise, I prefer what he did with the band over what his predecessor Hugh Padgham created on IVL, owing in part to my preference for "raw" over "clean" when it comes to the sound on a record.

I do agree with the opening track(s) problem. Heaven and Summer set the wrong tone and unlike most things in life, when it comes to albums, it's not how you finish, it's how you start. Great opening tracks are critically important for setting the mood and feel for an album. The Hip did a great job with track sequencing and slotting the best openers in the 1990's but seemed to treat the task as more of an afterthought in the 2000's. Are You Ready is the weakest track on IVL, and Heaven is, at least for me, the second weakest on IBE. If I could make one small change on IBE, it would be to simply take Heaven and Summertime and move them to the back of the album. Now IBE opens with Gus and Vaccination Scar and hits the ground running. It would dramatically improve the feel of that album for me.

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:WATS, to my ear, was a step up from the bloated, tasteless grotesquerie of the disastrous WC.

Strong words! I think the only track on WC that would be deserving of the adjective "bloated" would be the title track. There are other things to quibble about on that album, including Gord's vocals on "Fly" and the dullness of "Pretend" (which results in a loss of album momentum) but I think overall it's a great album.

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:On the lyrics on 'Plan A,' well, repetition is part of popular music...complaining about 'drip drip drip' in particular seems a bit much. But there's no question that he took a minimalist approach to lyrics on that album. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I don't object to simplicity. Those songs have deep feeling behind them, an intelligent and impassioned pack of solid tunes.

I agree that it is certainly a part of popular music. In fact, it's the surest way to create a "hit". You want to create a song that will worm it's way in to people's brains? Just keep repeatin'

My problem with Gord including so much of this on NFPA is that it seems beneath his station as a songwriter. "Repetition" is likely on page one of the Songwriting for Beginner's handbook. There's so much of it on the album that it had to be intentional and must have been a lyrical form that he was interested in exploring, but it was not one that I particularly enjoyed listening to. It detracts from any deeper meaning of the songs.

Moof_Milker Wrote:I didn't like At Transformation that much when it came out...but love it now. I no longer rank it...or any album as my least favourite. For me, each album is like a chapter in my most favourite book. I'm grateful for it all! Don't get me wrong, like many of you here, I have very strong opinions on each album. It's part of being a fan! I love the discussion/debates.

Agreed. "Least favourite" requires re-definition in the context of the Hip. I haven't and won't ever stop listening to any of the albums, although obviously I enjoy some more than others. "Least favourite album" for many of the other bands I love can often mean that I don't listen to the album at all anymore, and likely never will (e.g. Radiohead's "King of Limbs", REM's "Around the Sun")

potsie Wrote:"Least favourite" requires re-definition in the context of the Hip. I haven't and won't ever stop listening to any of the albums, although obviously I enjoy some more than others.

Agreed. I had strong words earlier about IBE and WATS, but I wouldn't exactly call them bad albums by any stretch. I just don't like them as much as the others. Even a sub-par Hip album (by their standards) is still pretty decent for the most part. Longevity can be a curse, and a veteran band like the Hip are certainly going to experience a few bumps along the way creatively. Nobody hits it out of the park every single time, except for maybe those rare artists who are less prolific like Tom Waits, who usually takes about 7 or 8 years between albums.

direwolf74 Wrote:

potsie Wrote:"Least favourite" requires re-definition in the context of the Hip. I haven't and won't ever stop listening to any of the albums, although obviously I enjoy some more than others.

Agreed. I had strong words earlier about IBE and WATS, but I wouldn't exactly call them bad albums by any stretch. I just don't like them as much as the others. Even a sub-par Hip album (by their standards) is still pretty decent for the most part. Longevity can be a curse, and a veteran band like the Hip are certainly going to experience a few bumps along the way creatively. Nobody hits it out of the park every single time, except for maybe those rare artists who are less prolific like Tom Waits, who usually takes about 7 or 8 years between albums.

Yup, even on their "weaker" albums (which I would not dare list my opinion of strongest to weakest of their discography as its only my opinion and someone out there will have the exact inverse list) there has always been three or four gold nuggets on them. Or perhaps better described as "diamonds in the rough" as sometimes it does take a few listenings to capture the magnitude and brilliance of the song.