[joshwayy]

Wow..holy use of the quote button batman...

I believe that the Indigenous North Americans had the best explanation of religion...it's everywhere....in the rocks, the rivers, the ta tonka, you know??? Pass me that damn pipe brazzle.

I'm agnostic personally, but just because I can't rely on hearsay. Show me some solid proof and I’d go to church and pray till my jeans wore through the knees. I believe that the Judeo-catholic tradition won out (at least for us Anglos) simply because it had the better business plan…it collected taxes, tithes, and sold forgiveness to the highest bidder. In the broad scheme of things it really hasn’t been around all that long, if the human race lives another 2000 years I wonder what the whole thing will look like. How can we say God is the one and only god with all the conviction of the Christian Coalition when a vast majority of the world believes in something else…more people follow the teachings of Muhammad or Buddha than Jesus. MSN had a poll asking if you believed Jesus arouse from the grave…I was stunned that 82% said yes….I was stunned.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7242385/site...eek#survey

My parents are very into church, they’re liberal Episcopalians from New Hampshire (you know the state with the gay Episcopal bishop??) and they don’t judge or preach, but I don’t subscribe. The community faith that their church gives them is very important to them, it is a very powerful part of who they are and I love that about them. Good topic, and a good discussion.

[BigRon]

It is very hard for me to talk religion because I get so annoyed at the topic for an array of personal reasons.

I think the Catholic church is possibly the most corrupt organization the world has ever seen, and the whole concept of heaven and hell is laughable to me. I don't mean to be rude and that is not my intent, just honest about what I think.

I try hard to repect others beliefs, but I am still amazed at the number of people who are deeply into organized religion. I know I'll get flamed and possibly hated for this, but I can't help but feel sorry for kids who are born into organized religion. It just drives me nuts.

When I turn on the news, it seems that half the world is hating and killing one another in the name of their god. What a disgrace.

I have some friends who are very spiritual and I am intrested in a great deal of what they have to say, but I don't think there is a GOD.

Be responsible for your own life, take your power back.
Ronny

[gratts99]

I know I'll get flamed and possibly hated for this,

I hope not , 99% of the people here are really cool and with a thread like this its 100% personal feelings and beliefs. Not everyone will see eye to eye, casue if we did the world would be pretty damn boring!

now if you say that you hate a certain hip song... well then the floodgates might open... :lol:

[j-monster]

When I turn on the news, it seems that half the world is hating and killing one another in the name of their god. What a disgrace.

This goes back to my point that it isn't the religion, it's the people representing the religion. Based on my understanding of religions, they teach people to love and respect other people, regardless of their beliefs, values, etc. The fact that people discriminate and engage in violence against others in the name of religion has nothing to do with the religions themselves... rather it is the fault of the people themselves, because people are fallible and commit sins. It is sad and it is a disgrace that this happens... but to blame religion for this is misguided.

[BigRon]

J-monster: I definitely see what you are saying, and agree. I just was thinking that without people to follow it, religion ceases to exist. What better way to judge a religion than by the practices of it's followers. That was how I was thinking, but you are totally right in the way you said it too.

Also, I was assuming I'd get flamed because I'm used to some of the bodybuilding boards I go on (some with over 10 000 members), where there are tons of really annoying people who like to pick fights and sound like experts when they have only been working out for 3 months. LOL. It gets hard for the vets to have a good debate without a bunch of newbies ruining things. Plus I can't seem to get a single person here to agree with any of my points of view on the Mcquire thread, LOL.

Gratts99 - I was never a fan of 700ft ceiling, probably my least favorite Hip song, not including Evelynn, LOL. Don't kill me.

Ronny

[gratts99]

Gratts99 - I was never a fan of 700ft ceiling, probably my least favorite Hip song, not including Evelynn, LOL. Don't kill me.

Ronny

no problem, i absolutly hate "its good life" ...lol

and most of us try not to be as agressive as bodybuilders on the forums

[BigRon]

Now don't go making blanket statements like that. You said "as aggressive as bodybuilders", which is a typical stereotype. Bodybuilders aren't aggressive any more than any other athletes are. This misconception came about because bodybuilders look different, and stick out, therefore people remember them more than say, a swimmer.

If a guy is rude to you, and happens to be a sprinter, you say "that guy's an asshole." If he is big, you say "that bodybuilder's an asshole." See what I mean. We look different, the root of all prejudice and misconception.

The same would definitely apply to religion I guess. Muslims seem to be getting a lot of bad attention, and they happen to look different a lot of the time.

Now back to the God Machine, lol.
Ronny

[gratts99]

Bodybuilders aren't aggressive any more than any other athletes are.

In my experiences they have been... my cousins used to train professionally and I used to and help out. I have never met a more hyper, cocky group of guys. So i will use the word aggressive

[BigRon]

Have you ever trained or hung out with professionals from any other sport???

You'll have to in order to make a clear decision comparison. In my experience, the NHL guys I have known blow everyone out of the water for cockyness.

Ronny

[FighterAndLover]

It appears I have found this thread much too late, but for those of you who care (few as you may be) I have a few points I'd like to add.

1.) For all those who posted about their distaste for the catholic church, I think a lot of people (even Christians of other denominations) agree with you. A few people in this thread mentioned they still have faith in God- why not try finding another denomination that better matches your beliefs? There are hundreds of them.

2.) Even non-believers have to recognize the moral structure the Bible offers. People can say, "Oh well yeah you believe in same-sex marriages because the Bible says so, but I don't believe in God!" Can you offer another moral issue where the Bible was incorrect on, though? I think if we were all able to consider the commandments before taking action the world would be a much better place. So don't disregard the Bible's content just because you aren't a Christian.

3.) Yes, I believe in God. Anyone who says there is no evidence that there is a God, give me some evidence about evolution. I agree that evolution is laughable. Is it hard to believe that God exists, hard to fathom the things written about him? Yes, but I don't believe it's any harder to believe than the other theories are. On top of that, it gives so much more hope, so why not believe it, or at least explore it? You can say man invented christianity, but I can tell you one thing: Man can't artifically create the feeling of certainty inside me that God exists. So scoffers, scoff, but rational people, I encourage you to explore Christianity....

[fingernailsonhull]

Fighter and Lover, your argument goes somewhat along the line of Descartes. I whole-heartedly believe in God and the Bible. However, Descartes' argument was that God must exist because it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a human to come up with such an idea as God. This was Descartes' cosmological argument for the existence of God in his Third Meditation.

[FighterAndLover]

Fighter and Lover, your argument goes somewhat along the line of Descartes. I whole-heartedly believe in God and the Bible. However, Descartes' argument was that God must exist because it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a human to come up with such an idea as God. This was Descartes' cosmological argument for the existence of God in his Third Meditation.

Descartes? Who is that? I don't think our beliefs are parallel, man HAS created HUNDREDS of god's. There must be 80000000 gods in the world. What I'm saying is that no one can replicate this feeling of certainty inside me.

[Gov'tMule]

Fighter and Lover, your argument goes somewhat along the line of Descartes. I whole-heartedly believe in God and the Bible. However, Descartes' argument was that God must exist because it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a human to come up with such an idea as God. This was Descartes' cosmological argument for the existence of God in his Third Meditation.

Descartes? Who is that? I don't think our beliefs are parallel, man HAS created HUNDREDS of god's. There must be 80000000 gods in the world. What I'm saying is that no one can replicate this feeling of certainty inside me.

Rene' Descartes was a dirty old fart, "I drink, therefore I am!"

Descartes was writing in a dangerous time for scientists. Heresy was punishable by death. He had to be political correct in what he wrote. David Hume is my favorite philosopher. One of his most interesting points is that man creates God in his own image, because man, essentially, creates everything he knows out of pieces of what he already knows, therefore man can only create a god that is a reflection of what man has already experienced...a "Father" who provides guidance.

Man cannot imagine non-existence. Consciousness dictates existence, "Cogito, ergo sum", which actually means; "I have cognition, therefore I exist". Man creates an afterlife because he literally CANNOT concieve of non-existence.

I am an Existentialist and an Atheist. I not only don't believe in a god, I don't believe in an afterlife. This is it, there ain't no more. When you die, all that you are or were disappears. "We don't go to hell, just our memories do". In anticipation of the "You believe we're just random chance and then we die? Why not just kill yourself now" arguements, the above gives me the freedom to exist NOW...not in anticipation that if I act acccording to some rules I'll get a reward after I'm dead.

The original issue of America and it's piousness misses that most Americans don't know the difference between Ethics and Morality...most Americans associate religion with moral values...witness the last election. I wish someone would smack them with a stick and wake them up to the number of humans that have been killed in the name of religion.

Most Americans don't understand that you can be moral and ethical and never believe in the god myth.

And for all you people who like to say that Evolution is "JUST A THEORY": Your god is just a crutch you use because you are too stupid and weak willed to live life without it.

Oh, are you insulted? Good!

Because everytime you state that Evolution is just a theory you appear as stupid as what I just wrote about you. You are describing a HYPOTHESIS. A THEORY is a "well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena". Years of research and millions of experiments and millions of investigators HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO DISPROVE EVOLUTION. In fact, all the evidence just continues to back up the THEORY. You can no more write off the 'theory' of Evolution then you can write off most Mathematical principals.

[cferneyh]

Your god is just a crutch you use because you are too stupid and weak willed to live life without it.

Wow! I want to put that on a t-shirt.

[FighterAndLover]

All I was saying is that Creation "THEORY" (yes, theory) is no less-believable than the theory of evolution. No one has disproved evolution, no one's proved it either. No one's proved or disproved creation either.

As for your comments about Bush, I guess I'm glad I have a President that's willing to take action when he knows a people are oppressed.

"Sometimes we must interfere.  
When human lives are endangered, 
when human dignity is in  jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant.  Whenever men or women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must - at that moment - become the center of the universe." -Elie Wiesel, Author of Night and survivor or Auschwitz

You'd think someone that survived Auschwitz, one of the most horrible events and places in recent history, would want nothing more than love and peace for the rest of mankind. But even HE is willing to admit that when necessary, sometimes we must interfere. To help another culture, another people, who are being terrorized by their own leader. I'm pretty sure he was grateful the leader of his country was removed from power, how can you say Iraqi's aren't appreciative? Your point on how Christians mix up morals and ethics seems moot when it is obvious we must take action.

The US (and world in general) have taken different positions in world affairs recently. After being slaughtered for interfering in Somalia, we sat back despite our knowledge of the terros the people in Rwanda were facing. As a result, the entire world looked to U.S., blamed us for not intervening.

So what the hell is Bush to do? Sit back and get flamed and allow innocent people to be persecuted, or take action and risk lives? Either way the world will criticize him.

Christians do have strong morals, closely intertwined with their beliefs in ethics because if they weren't, they would have slipped away from the faith. I don't think there are too many moral issues in the Bible mentioned that the average person would honestly disagree with. (Respect your parents/others in authority, don't lie, don't steal, don't murder). I challenge you to find me one that goes too far.