PunBB

Doing some research on why Americans are always considered more pious and religious than Canadians (And why and when that used to be the other way around) and it turns out that a large number of Canadians, myself included, believe in God or a higher power, but have abandoned organized religion and the "Church on Sunday" routine.

So, less religious certainly doesn't mean less faithful or spiritual, and in fact, some of the folks who claim no religion, seem to be the most emphatic about God (or a reasonable facimile) and his existence.

I'd assume there's an equally large number of folks like this South of the border as well.

What's your take?

You could chalk me up as a non-believer. I find church to be cult-like and I really do not enjoy it at all. Not trying to offend here, but I don't understand how people believe there is a god. It just has never seemed logical to me.

I am not anti-religion at all, but thats what really bugs me about same-sex marriage debates. For me I dont think marriage has a thing to do with religion. However, most of the people who are against same-sex marriage cite the bible as their primary source.

...Let the mud-slinging begin...

This is gonna get really ugly soon...Jen do you have your lock handy??

Goulet!!

There is a stunning brunette at the gym I go to. When she is on the stair climber with her U of S Husky shorts on I believe in God. Any other time, not really.

Okay, before it does get ugly....

When you say Americans are "always" seen as more religious, do you mean down through the ages, or do you mean that they are universally seen as more religious in the present day?

I'm not certain that Americans have always, down through the ages, been more religious than Canadians. The decline of religion as a force in public life is pretty recent, in both countries, I'd think.

If they're universally viewed as more religious (from a Canadian perspective), I'd say it's simply because of the high profile that fundamentalist and evangelical Christians have gained in the past 20 years or so. Those movements are in Canada, too, but have not gained the same acceptance for reasons I'd rather not explore....

My take? I'll do the uncharacteristic thing, and keep my views on organized religion and personal spirituality to myself.

robert goulet Wrote:This is gonna get really ugly soon...Jen do you have your lock handy??

Goulet!!

hahaha...no, actually religion threads do tend to get out of hand but if we can all keep it in perspective and just be non-judgmental of one another it will all go well :wink: I think this is quite an interesting topic, one that causes alot of heated debate on other forums, but I know people here can be nice (well most anyway)


As far as my take on religion, I personally don't believe in anything, yet I was brought up a Baptist. Baptists are bad as far as their organized religion. I missed out on alot of opportunities as I grew up because of what was or was NOt allowed in that religion. (ex: not allowed to listen to any rock music or 'worldly' music...no HIP!) I had to go to church 3 times a week (twice on Sunday) and I even went to a Baptist school. I didn't 'turn' from religion because it forced me away, I turned from it mostly because I just started to personally NOT believe anymore, I am just more science oriented and I need the burden of proof to believe anything now.




One thing I do hate about religion though is how it becomes the backbone of many governmental issues here in the US. With gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion, etc. I really don't think laws, government and religion belong hand in hand. Hopefully there will be a day when church and state are separate.

On a good note, I do like how religion/god/higher power brings comfort to people, especially in death and time of need. When someone dies that I love, I sometimes wish I had that belief that I will see them again, or that they are happy in a heaven. I just don't believe that and therefore don't have that comfort. Not something I can control, I am just simply a nonbeliever.

Thats my take....

skippy the wonder dog Wrote:Okay, before it does get ugly....

When you say Americans are "always" seen as more religious, do you mean down through the ages, or do you mean that they are universally seen as more religious in the present day?

I mean recently, as in Red State/Blue State "moral values" crusading America versus the cynical and more secular USA of the Nixon/Vietnam era.

And with history, as in when loyalists were fleeing the "Godless" revolutionaries (Some of that literature is beyond funny given the accepted history of the heroic American revolution) for a more deferential and God-fearing dominion of the North.

The piece deals with surveys and stuff like the CIA fact book which consider America more "church-going" and "religious," as subjective as those terms may be, while Canada is seen as a more "secular" and "liberal" society.

As I look further into it, it's apparent that "religious" and "secular" aren't always opposing terms... but "church going" seems to be passe here and all the rage there.

Typical "Fire and Ice" stuff I guess.

Stephen Dame Wrote:As I look further into it, it's apparent that "religious" and "secular" aren't always opposing terms... but "church going" seems to be passe here and all the rage there.

I'd say that the lower success of fundamentalist Christianity in Canada is in part because Canadians are more likely to do what you just did: to reject the idea that "religious" and "secular" are opposites.

While steering clear of my views on organized religions, I'll say that I'm an atheist but also that I am offended by atheists who deride religion as "silly" or "stupid." Those are people who haven't closely examined their own beliefs, and certainly haven't read Joseph Campbell.

Human beings are spiritual animals. Steinbeck said something about the human tragedy being our failure to adapt to our own consciousness. Our self-awareness leads us to questions like, "why am I here? Is this all there is? Isn't she hot?" Actually, the third one crept in simply because men think of sex every six seconds ... but the rest are spiritual questions, which lead ultimately to religion.

Douglas Wrote:There is a stunning brunette at the gym I go to. When she is on the stair climber with her U of S Husky shorts on I believe in God. Any other time, not really.

LOL! :thumb:

I'm pretty sure I believe in God, and organized religion, in its more benign forms, can provide a community that many people find worthwhile. I was raised Catholic myself, but I've got problems with hte Church's position on same-sex marriage and the like. This does not mean I'm through with organized religion, but it does mean I've started investigating the United Church of Canada as a much better fit for my beliefs. Those people love everybody!

I usually steer clear of these religious debates. Although I fancy myself a bit of a Bible expert, but rarely do I get into arguments/debates about it on the internet, if people dont believe thats fine. I think a better question to ask is: do you believe in the Bible? If so, you must believe in God. I think that would be a better place to start, because if someone doesnt believe in the Bible then you really cant convince them otherwise, unless they are open to the possibility. Personally I do believe in God. Some believe the universe is a product of blind chance, eg: big bang theory (and yes it is just a theory) or evolution by apes, which is laughable. But if this is so, why are humans conscious of God? Why would an accidental combination of various chemicals or evolution produce creatures with a spiritual need?

jen Wrote:One thing I do hate about religion though is how it becomes the backbone of many governmental issues here in the US. With gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion, etc. I really don't think laws, government and religion belong hand in hand. Hopefully there will be a day when church and state are separate.

I couldn't agree more. Politics and religion should stay as far away from each other as possible. You can put me down in the non-believer column as well. My mom's family was Christian. My dad's family...er...not so much. We tried going to church when I was a kid, but that ended pretty quick. By the time I was 6 my folks had basically given up on it.

Just for fun, here's my favorite take on religion from the always hilarious George Carlin. Apologies in advance if this offends anybody. Enjoy!

"When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims. Religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was. In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much."

LizardKing51 Wrote:Some believe the universe is a product of blind chance, eg: big bang theory (and yes it is just a theory) or evolution by apes, which is laughable. But if this is so, why are humans conscious of God? Why would an accidental combination of various chemicals or evolution produce creatures with a spiritual need?

Purely out of curiousity, do you actually think that the idea that humans evolved from a primate ancestor is laughable? Or is it the notion that life itself could have arisen accidentally that you find laughable?

Stephen Dame Wrote:What's your take?

Ask and ye shall receive......

In My Humble Opinion (I'm starting at the Beginning for purposes of continuity):

1. The physical universe is random and chaotic, as is “life” as we know it (i.e. “existence”). The conditions under which principal elements formed matter was purely coincidental, and the ‘primordial soup’ that cooked up the earliest, most fundamental building blocks of “life” occurred as a result of nothing more than a unfathomably precise recipe of matter and energy.

2. In this context of randomness and chaos, genetic mutations occurred when initial single-celled organisms reproduced, yielding a variety of differences amongst individual organisms. Those organisms best suited to survive (and propagate) as a result of having more functional physical distinctions (by way of mutations) did so through a process known as natural selection, as expressed through the scientific theory of Mr. Charles Darwin. Complex organisms thus evolved from simpler ones, and over the course of 2.5 to 3.9 billion years, a species had evolved so efficiently that it would eventually develop an intellect. Enter homo sapiens sapiens (human beings).

3. As the intellectual capacity of humankind evolved enough to allow for the contemplation of its own existence, it faced some stressfully perplexing mysteries. There were questions which not only would not be answered, but could not be answered. As language developed, and as civilizations took root independently around the globe, the exchange of ideas consistently found there to be a confounding void in the ‘realm of the known’.

4. Out of necessity more than anything else, this “void” was filled with a device that allowed human societies to continue developing without allowing these tremendously daunting mysteries to thwart social growth. This device was the concept of “God”. It occurs as a sort of artificial defense mechanism, if you will - a philosophical reflex - to distract the mind from dwelling on cosmic quandaries. Grappling with such menacing philosophical issues could render life meaningless and purposeless, jeopardizing its progress if not its very existence. However, humankind found it could liberate the mind and soul from such encumberment by simply explaining away all cosmic mysteries through the manufacture of deities.

5. Before long, early civilizations which had begun to develop social classes and hierarchies of power discovered that entire populations could be motivated and controlled through the influence of these deities, especially when the innately-human concepts of morality and righteousness were infused. Threats of divine punishment exacted within the realm of the living and warnings of certain post-mortem judgement of souls enslaved weaker-thans by governing common behavior and delineating social structure.

6. This practice was so effective that religion became institutionalized in various forms throughout global society. It remains alive and well, serving as a mandate for the preservation of sovereignty, as a tool for the accumulation of wealth, as a template for personal and social morality, and as a source of emotional fortitude.

I do not believe in God. I do not believe in an infinite creator, nor do I believe in a supreme being, an omnipotent presence, or a governing 'life-force'. I do not even believe in the existence of the 'soul'. When a person dies, life ends, and he/she simply ceases to exist just as he/she was non-existent prior to conception. Period.

Have a Nice Day. :wink:

Well this is difficult.. i mean how many "gods" have been written of in history? Alot right? I mean the egyptions had like 14 gods. So if you beleive in God now do believe that every 3000 years theres a differnent god or that those egyption gods never existed or that there is one all mighty god?

i believe church is a business... and a place to pray. And they will keep saying what they have too, in order to get people. Yes i think its brainwashing to a point, and even when the human race is getting wiped out by disease and mother nature, the churches will be and still are full!

Answer-No

LizardKing51 Wrote:) or evolution by apes, which is laughable.

Im pretty sure thats what they taught me in high school.. you know caveman to human etc..

LizardKing51 Wrote:) . But if this is so, why are humans conscious of God?

The same reason we are conscious of walmarts low prices!!
WORD OF MOUTH AND ADVERTISING