[cferneyh]

Oh wise and learned one..Why is it that you are so insecure that you have to question my ability to reason just because of my age? I'm guessing you were unhappy with your childhood?'ll just amuse myself by observing from now on.

My, aren't we sensitive. First the threat to move to Sweden if the Hipbase anti-Christ is elected, then the threat to stop posting because someone didn't agree with your wonderful theories. Since you've questioned the happiness of my childhood, let me make an inference about yours: only child perhaps? Somebody sure doesn't like it when he doesn't get his way. Perhaps you should start a blesser blog where only you can post, and then you can post to congratulate youself on the intelligence of your posts. I'm sure it would be a big hit.

Uh, why would I care if you end up working for the federal government? Really, why would I? Do you honestly think anything you could do at that level would impact me? My, don't we think we are important.

Those are all wonderful passages you've cut and paste. Really, they are. And, based on what you've posted, it appears that I was wrong in assuming that a socialist political economy automatically equates to the existence of unions. It appears that in your Swedish Utopia, the entire workforce is unionized by the government, what with controlling wage and income disparities. Sorry for painting it all with the same brush, but all artificial wage controls - be it from the gov't or from unions - they all smell the same to me.

[fingernailsonhull]

I'll take issue with blesser just for fun. I'm a third year Political Science student, so I at least have some faint idea about what I am talking about (as it is obvious you do as well). Heavily regulated statist economies are very conducive to rapid industrialization. Whether it be through import substitution or export orientation, state control based on the advantages of the country do well to bolster a fledgling economy and keep social inequities at a minimum. However, in an advanced industrial country, such as Canada (which industrialized largely due to an ISI policy), strong state intervention through tariffs and subsidies, often increases inefficiencies in various industries. Over time, the ineffiencies grow until the industry is unable to compete if it is introduced to any real competition. A statist economy is all well and good for one that is growing, but largely inefficient for one that is already well established. The government should provide services that otherwise would not be delivered or services that are considered essential - such as health care. This is how government should operate, I believe, within a country such as Canada.

[prz]

Dame,

were you not an NDPer during the last election? Or am I wrong.

I would really like to know what the Conservatives support is on this board. I get the sense its down around 10 percent at best.

I also have a hard time understanding why the Liberals are the protectors of health care while the system is falling apart under their watch.

Universal Health Care is not going to last, it can't, I am not calling for a US based style system but something that is more in line with what France and Sweden have in place might be a good alternative.

[Stephen Dame]

Hi, a quick check in:

Two reasons why I hope the Conservatives lose and lose BIG:

#1: Cutting the GST? Man, they must really underestimate the intelligence of the average Canadian. It's a good campaign promise, bad long term policy... just like all the rest of 'em

#2: Shit like: "Christmas is under attack. Canada is a Christian country and shouldn't be afraid to celebrate Christmas" that I heard at a Conservative event today. First of all, Canada doesn't have a religion, second... well, here's what I just wrote in a letter to The Globe:

"Christmas is not under attack as some would have us believe. I fear that the “protect Christmas” protestors are missing the entire point of multi-cultural Canada at this, and other all times of the year. Christmas is a long standing religious tradition that is just as secure and flourishing as Chanukah, or Ramadan. Acknowledging other festivals and faiths does not detract from Christmas in any way. The fact that the family down the street is celebrating another holiday won’t hinder my family from celebrating the birth of Christ. Simply because Christians are in the majority, does not mean we own the country or can dictate its traditions. We are all guests here, most of us by a stroke of luck called birth. Each of our religions, values and customs are equal. Christmas, by virtue of demographics, isn’t going anywhere for a very long time. I’m happy to say the same is true for the other major religious festivals. In answer to silly questions such as 'why is it so hard to buy a card that says “Merry Christmas?” It’s not hard at all, and any trip to any mall will demonstrate that. It will also demonstrate that Canada is a country vibrant and alive with various peoples, cultures and traditions. The glory of each takes nothing away from the other."

Man, I'm disliking Conservatives more and more every day... and I didn't think that was possible.

P.S. Blesser: the PM's aren't working on the board right now, something about "DEBUG MODE" and you don't have an e-mail listed, so I'll reply here, hope you don't mind:

Are you getting your P-S degree from UOttawa? If so, any dealings with Serge Cuolombe? Pretty prominent figure in my classes lately - I work with a lot of his publications.

Nah, I think he's since moved on. When I was first an undergrad it was the usual Docherty, Savoie and CES Franks readings. I did have the NDP's Alex Munter as a prof once, and was taught by Tim Powers who is now Harper's lead spinner.

In all likelihood, I'll end up running back to Halifax with my tail between my legs to work provincial politics here, but it's worth a shot at least.

Just like Peter McKay.

[keithtalent]

Sort of off topic, but a question for you poli sci majors. Have you ever come across any Mises or Rothbard in any of your courses? I'm guessing the answer would be no but hopefully someone will surprise me.

And don't worry Dame, I will never vote for the Conservatives again until Harper is turfed as leader. I'm hoping this will be right after this election, I can't see him doing any better than last time (especially given the fine start he's off to). I think I'm not the only former Progressive Conservative still looking for a new political home.

Certainly. von Mises and Rothbard are both huge figures in the Libertarian movement. Though I learned of Mises through my upper-year economics classes, Rothbard is a name mentioned in most first-year poli sci classes I'm assuming because of his theories of monetary policy.

Not only does von Mises have some interesting economic theories that rival Keynes, his personal history was pretty neat too.

keithtalent.... is Peter Mackay a better option in your opinion? He seems like an interesting personality, though I dont know a whole lot about his politics.

Interesting, I'm an economist and I never came across Mises in any of my courses, luckily I picked up a copy of Human Action at a used bookstore one day.

I thought Mackay had potential, too bad he sold the PCs out to the new Conservative party. It's just obvious that the current leadership is more interested in power than actually serving the needs of conservatives. This became pretty clear when Harper tried to bring the government down the first time, when nobody wanted an election. Not only he did end up losing Stronach, who would have been a huge asset in Ontario, but he forced the Liberals into a deal with the NDP, resulting in billions in additional spending.

And why this GST cut promise? While tax cuts are always good policy (as long as there are spending cuts to match), governments should be cutting income taxes ahead of consumption taxes. Given the dismal productivity record of late, the last thing Canada needs is a tax cut that further reduces the incentive to save. But hey, if it gets you some votes Stephen :roll:

[prz]

CES Franks was one of the better profs I had at Queens. One of the most down to earth Profs yet one of the smartest I was taught by.

[fingernailsonhull]

Dame, the ridiculous "protect Christmas" rhetoric is no different than Martin's statement that the Conservatives "still haven't figured out that the earth isn't flat." We're not really concerning ourselves with the petty things that various people say are we? On the other hand, you seem to spend the majority of your time being concerned with the issues, such as reducing the GST, which is a ridiculous election promise.

[Stephen Dame]

Full disclosure: My mother's one of those Conservatives I dislike so much. She also works for the government.

Here's parts of an e-mail discussion we just had, and some points I made, which tie into my above comments and I think put the debate in perspective. Her comments in italics:

"We should all be able to say and have Banners that say Merry Christmas without having to worrying about hurting the feelings of others. I would not mind seeing banners etc up that say Happy Hanukkah.etc. or being greeted by someone who says Shalom ,Happy Ramadan ( whatever) I would reply thank you and Happy Ramadan to you and if they were celebrating their
holiday" at Christmas time I would say "Merry Christmas as well.".because that is what I am celebrating !"

If you're putting up a Christmas tree in your house, cool. If you're putting up a Christmas tree in a public place (city hall, the mall) then you should put up a Menorah and a Muslim Crescent as well. Public places (like your work... which is funded through taxes taken from Muslims, Jews and Christians) should reflect the public, not the chunk of it that happens to be largest. Putting everything on equal ground recognizes reality by making things equal, it doesn't knock Christmas down a notch.

You can say whatever you want, nobody is stopping you, and I don't think anyone's "feelings are hurt" by putting up "Merry Christmas" banners. They might very well be offended though if public places in their own country refuse to recognize their traditions as equal simply because they are in a minority, or because white-bred WASP's feel every change to "their" country is some kind of threat. I don't think I need to tell you that you need not be born here to call this place home in your heart.

I also think you'd agree that common courtesy and being a polite human being would make you say "Shalom" back to someone, regardless of your beliefs or politics. Just as you put an exclamation point after "it's what I believe!" you have to also respect what others believe. (!) It's the same "Golden Rule" principal that I would hope keeps anyone from saying intolerant bullshit like "they" and "my country." Sadly, it doesn't. It's EVERYBODY'S country, and WE all have the right to walk into a public place, during whatever religious holiday is occurring, and see that reflected. The glory of all detracts from no one.

"Why should our greeting have to be Happy Holidays now, why can't we just say Merry Christmas because it is our Christmas, We can say Happy Hanukkah when Hanukkah starts , I respect everyone's "traditions" and I would like them to respect what I have been up to believe But when I am told not to say Merry Christmas because it is offensive to some, I say "hog wash" They can celebrate their way and I can celebrate my way."

Well, what I said above about public places applies here as well. But there's also a common sense issue: why as a public servant in a multicultural country, and a polite human being beyond that, would you want to greet someone with what you believe? You don't tell them your favourite colour, your sexual preference, or who you're voting for, so why do you feel the need to slip "I believe in celebrating the birth of Christ" into a greeting? Isn't it easier, not to mention far more polite and respectful, to just say "Happy Holidays" and cover everything and everyone?

To be honest, I think those in public work places who whine about not being able to say "Merry Christmas" are somewhat insecure. They see other beliefs as challenging their own, and so slipping their greeting in makes them feel like they're sticking up for the cause, like they're fighting for Christmas. The whole point of my letter is that there's no need to fight. Christmas isn't going anywhere. Other faiths don't diminish Christmas. They can all co-exist (and have for thousands of years) together. Instead of saying "Happy whatever the hell you celebrate, I myself will be celebrating Christmas," "Happy Holidays" provides us all with a pleasant greeting at a time when we're supposed to be embracing brotherhood. Those "my belief, my country" quacks have a fundamental problem with other people, other beliefs and the brotherhood that Canada embodies. Their ignorance and intolerance just bubbles to the top at this time of year. Be proud of being whatever you are, it doesn't require holding down others. Just like insecure people who are jealous of the attention others receive because of their looks or possessions, these goons don't like the idea that their beliefs aren't universally accepted and admired. Their real enemy is common courtesy and the "Golden Rule," they don't see others as equal.

"I agree that Schools should celebrate all faiths, religions etc but they should still be allowed to sing Christian carols because that is part of "us" What ever the songs are for other religions , then sing them as well. We are multi cultural yes, but we shouldn't have to CHANGE our ways to be that. We should just add the other cultural stuff to what we already do....
Have a nice day and Remember I love you!!!"

See, I love you too, even if I don't love your beliefs. And THAT'S where the problem and solution lay. If everybody would simply accept the fact that underneath the skin colour and religious traditions that our parents gave us, we're all exactly the same, we'd be able to shrug off the small differences among each other as we do with family members. You and I need to feel the same way about the beliefs of some guy with a turban on his head as we do about each others. Easy? No. Necessary? Yes.

As hard as it may be to accept, the world of 1955 is gone and never coming back. There is a new "us" and it includes others who have different beliefs. John Raulston Saul called Canada "the world's first post-modern nation" meaning that we don't have any traditions, we simply make them up as we go along... and that's why we've avoided ethnic conflict and built a country, unique on the planet, which says you can be anything: Sikh, Jew, Witch, or hell even a separatist, and still call yourself "Canadian." To me, that's worth fighting for. An important battleground over that fight right now is among liberals like me and those whose insecurity, ignorance and longing for 1955 make them fight for "what should be" instead of embracing "what is."

Love you,

Bye.

[cferneyh]

Way to tell your momma and post it!

[fingernailsonhull]

Dame, with all your rabidly anti-Tory rhetoric I feel kind of dirty saying this, but I agree with you 100%. Civil servants are representatives of the government and the government is impartial to any religion, creed, ethnicity, etc. It is therefore fitting that civil servants, in a work atmosphere, express a religiously neutral greeting. Furthermore, I agree that mutual respect is what is necessary for religious co-existence. Many people confuse this with acceptance. It is perfectly legitimate for members of one religion or belief system to disagree with someone from another. It is okay to say that they are wrong. What is absolutely not okay is to do so in a disrespectful or condescending way. It is not okay to consider other people somehow less Canadian because of their different beliefs. As some of you may know, I am a deeply religious person and hold to my beliefs as true. On the other hand, I am more than willing to engage in civil and respectful conversation or debate with people who disagree with me.

Maybe this makes me a moderate Conservative in some people's eyes, but I think this is the prevailing attitude among the leadership of the Tories. There may be intolerant jerks (as there are at the other end of the spectrum as well) who think, mistakenly, that we are a Christian country or something else of that nature and that a certain degree of political correctness somehow dilutes our rights as citizens. This simply is not the case.

I think my point was that "Save Christmas" is not a particular Tory policy issue in this election. Just like eliminating EI or criminalizing abortions are not part of Tory policy, though I constantly hear people critize the Conservatives for things like this. Harper has tried very hard to moderate the social views of the Conservative Party and has done quite a good job. His comments are nothing like that of pundits Bill O'Reilly or Ann Coulter, even though many people perceive that the Tories are just like the Republicans. They're not.

[The Horrible Esthete]

Dame, your mother sounds to me like one swell lady.

Tell her I said "Merry Christmas", will you please?

And tell her that I really mean it, even though I am a dead-red athiest. Yes, I celebrate "Christmas" even though I do not believe in Christ or God almighty.

How can I be such a hypocrite, you ask?

Because it's the traditions, the spirit, the tidings, and the common festivity that I celebrate and spread this time of year, not the birth of some carpenter who lived 2000 years ago. So you might think that I, of all people, ought to advocate "Happy Holidays" over "Merry Christmas".

But I don't.

Because this seasonal spirit & tradition I learned through my family, my friends, and my entire community was something they called "Christmas", and it was THEIR tradition, and it was beautiful.

And even though I didn't share in the belief, I could still share in the spirit of their custom. Why should they, as a community, de-emphasize the basis for, and meaning of, their celebration just so people like me could join in the fun?

Simple answer: they don't and they shouldn't.

[blesser]

Dame, your mother sounds to me like one swell lady.

Tell her I said "Merry Christmas", will you please?

And tell her that I really mean it, even though I am a dead-red athiest. Yes, I celebrate "Christmas" even though I do not believe in Christ or God almighty.

How can I be such a hypocrite, you ask?

Because it's the traditions, the spirit, the tidings, and the common festivity that I celebrate and spread this time of year, not the birth of some carpenter who lived 2000 years ago. So you might think that I, of all people, ought to advocate "Happy Holidays" over "Merry Christmas".

But I don't.

Because this seasonal spirit & tradition I learned through my family, my friends, and my entire community was something they called "Christmas", and it was THEIR tradition, and it was beautiful.

And even though I didn't share in the belief, I could still share in the spirit of their custom. Why should they, as a community, de-emphasize the basis for, and meaning of, their celebration just so people like me could join in the fun?

Simple answer: they don't and they shouldn't.

:thumb: loving it..

its hard to argue that "christmas" is about religion anyway.. sure the churches are as full as they ever are on dec. 25, but to many people the season is about relaxation, family gathering, sharing of gifts, fruitcake (at least in my family :? ), and other things that form the tradition of this magical season... looking at "christmas" symbology, we see very little of christianity.. its more of a fairy tale

i was brought up in a catholic/jewish household, and religion never played a prominent role.. to us, christmas/hanukkah was sort of like "thanksgiving part II".. i think this is the reality in a lot of canadian households regardless of what the religious minority believes..

i think the conservatives see the census results that 70.3% of canadians report themselves as "christians" of some sort (mainly because it is the most appropriate classification.. not because we really are practicing faithful)... this is a juicy political statistic and quips relating to protecting christmas are just playing to this demographic at a very opportune time of year.. however, what the census doesnt tell you is that people like me are classified as "christians" even though i don't hold any particularly strong religious beliefs

[skippy the wonder dog]

#1: Cutting the GST? Man, they must really underestimate the intelligence of the average Canadian. It's a good campaign promise, bad long term policy... just like all the rest of 'em

Mmm, well, yes ... perhaps we could quote Jean Chretien on that one?

He must've really underestimated the intelligence of the average Canadian.

[skippy the wonder dog]

I respect everyone's "traditions"

Oh, look. A self-exploding argument, in only four words.

[fingernailsonhull]

I was thinking the same thing, Skippy. Didn't the Liberals get elected in the early '90s on the promise of eliminating the GST, not just dropping it 2%?