andrew sharpe Wrote:Killer Whale Tank Wrote:If they ever do release the "Bootleg Series," it should include as many demos from the WC sessions as possible. There is a parallel universe somewhere where Rock did not f**k up 3/4 of the songs on that album, and we need to hear it.
Let It Be Naked?
World Container Uncontained!
Killer Whale Tank Wrote:andrew sharpe Wrote:Killer Whale Tank Wrote:If they ever do release the "Bootleg Series," it should include as many demos from the WC sessions as possible. There is a parallel universe somewhere where Rock did not f**k up 3/4 of the songs on that album, and we need to hear it.
Let It Be Naked?
World Container Uncontained!
:thumb:
I've listened to most of the available demos for other Hip albums and none of them differ all that significantly from the final product. These two WC demos, however, are drastically different from what appears on the album. This could simply be a function of these being a very raw first run through of the songs. There are elements on both songs which indicate that might be the case: On "World Container" Sinclair's bass meanders in and out song suggesting he's still trying to work out his place in the song; and on "In View" Gord mumbles a first verse, suggesting that he a melody in his head and is now looking for some words to fit. However, even if a more polished set of demos exist, I strongly doubt that either of these two songs have piano or keyboards on them.
If these demos are what the Hip brought to Rock, then it bolsters the argument that no producer has had a greater impact on the Hip's sound, for better or worse (although a weak argument could be made for Kevin Drew and Dave Hamelin). Due to the striking difference of the demos, it would be very interesting to hear a WC "demo album", something that hasn't really proven to be the case for ones that are currently available for other albums.
potsie Wrote:If these demos are what the Hip brought to Rock, then it bolsters the argument that no producer has had a greater impact on the Hip's sound, for better or worse (although a weak argument could be made for Kevin Drew and Dave Hamelin). Due to the striking difference of the demos, it would be very interesting to hear a WC "demo album", something that hasn't really proven to be the case for ones that are currently available for other albums.
I'd make the case that Drew and Hamelin had a more drastic (for worse) impact on the Hip than Rock. I don't have too many issues with the production of WC and think it's a really good album overall. I had a more negative reaction to WATS, although it's grown on me. And I've stated before that no one has gotten better performances from the band than Rock. It's hard to know for certain just how big an effect Drew/Hamelin had (The Hip may have made a conscious decision on their own to go in the musical direction they did) on MMP, but I think it was quite large, especially judging some of the remarks made by Rob Baker.
Escape@Hand Wrote:potsie Wrote:If these demos are what the Hip brought to Rock, then it bolsters the argument that no producer has had a greater impact on the Hip's sound, for better or worse (although a weak argument could be made for Kevin Drew and Dave Hamelin). Due to the striking difference of the demos, it would be very interesting to hear a WC "demo album", something that hasn't really proven to be the case for ones that are currently available for other albums.
I'd make the case that Drew and Hamelin had a more drastic (for worse) impact on the Hip than Rock. I don't have too many issues with the production of WC and think it's a really good album overall. I had a more negative reaction to WATS, although it's grown on me. And I've stated before that no one has gotten better performances from the band than Rock. It's hard to know for certain just how big an effect Drew/Hamelin had (The Hip may have made a conscious decision on their own to go in the musical direction they did) on MMP, but I think it was quite large, especially judging some of the remarks made by Rob Baker.
Without hearing MMP demos it's difficult to say for sure just how much impact Drew and Hamelin had. No doubt they had some, particularly with respect to the vocal effects used on the album. There are at least four songs on WC that have a different Hip sound, likely due to Rock: 1. Rink, with it's dance-rock beat and flamenco guitar 2. Pretend with it's schmaltzy piano lounge jazz sound 3. World Container with piano and strings 4. In View, with it's pop leanings. I think this is a big impact, and I'm not sure Drew and Hamelin changed the Hip sound as much on MMP.
Rock on "rock" is fine. Rock on "soft", not so good. I think he did a fine job on most of the songs on WC. However, one of the biggest negative impacts that he had on the Hip sound is that he cut off Paul's mic. Paul's background vocals are scant on WC and almost non-existent on WATS. WATS has a lot of background singing, but none of it is done by Paul. This, to me, changes the Hip sound. YOU CAN'T MUTE THE ASS KICKER!
potsie Wrote:Rock on "rock" is fine. Rock on "soft", not so good. I think he did a fine job on most of the songs on WC. However, one of the biggest negative impacts that he had on the Hip sound is that he cut off Paul's mic. Paul's background vocals are scant on WC and almost non-existent on WATS. WATS has a lot of background singing, but none of it is done by Paul. This, to me, changes the Hip sound. YOU CAN'T MUTE THE ASS KICKER!
Interesting observation. Why do I have a memory of Paul saying something negative about Bob Rock? Did I actually hear/read this somewhere at the time...or did I just make this up? I certainly don't want to add fuel the Bob-Rock-is-the-devil narrative. I strongly believe that Rock did more good than harm. Way more good. Some of my favourite Paul guitar playing comes from this album.
i was listening to this album over the weekend and i realized that this tour was the last show i saw. still hard to believe that i will never see them again.
I think The Tragically Hips music is measured by Pre World Container and Post World Container. WC was the bands turning point from a “bar band” to mature expert musicians. The Hips management and social media folks did a great job of promoting the album and the tour. The shows were epic. The album cover was cool. The Merch was cool. Hipbase was in full swing. I love those songs. I loved that tour. In fact I would say it was the Hips last great tour.
NegPhil Wrote:In fact I would say it was the Hips last great tour.
The Fully Completely reissue tour, which I initially thought was gimmicky and unbecoming and I only saw by accident, was amazing. I've seen the Hip 15+ times and I would put that show in the top half of those. The production adds were great, the songs sounded fresh, and the crowds were hyped.
NegPhil Wrote:I think The Tragically Hips music is measured by Pre World Container and Post World Container. WC was the bands turning point from a “bar band” to mature expert musicians. The Hips management and social media folks did a great job of promoting the album and the tour. The shows were epic. The album cover was cool. The Merch was cool. Hipbase was in full swing. I love those songs. I loved that tour. In fact I would say it was the Hips last great tour.
Interesting thought, and I certainly relate to the Hipbase comment as that was when I joined. I remember joining the site to find out when to lineup for the warm up shows, and was greatly surprised that people on the board were lining up barely before the doors opened and were standing on the rail. I really appreciated the insight; it saved me a lot of time standing out in the cold in Calgary!
Not sure I would list things as pre-WC and post-WC; I would probably push that timeline back to M@W, in terms of their musical direction and cultural significance. I think their best albums, start to finish, were pre M@W, but some of their best individual songs are post M@W.
The WC tour was great, to be sure, but the WATS tour was better imho, just because of the sheer number of songs they broke out for that tour and the more intimate venues. I also know that most people hated the NFPA tour, but the U.S. shows were fantastic, and the two I saw rank right up there as the best I've ever seen. The MMP tour, of course, was a different animal all together. Performance wise, it certainly wasn't their best (for obvious reasons), but I remember being blown away in the Victoria show as they worked through their catalogue. There was a real sense that they could pull out any song they recorded, and I was greatly anticipating which song they would play next that night. Getting to hear The Luxury for the first time was one of many highlights for that night.
I'm digressing here a bit so I'll try to get back on topic; I'd totally agree that the WC tour was great, and they did seem to do a lot to push that album; I remember the CBC special with Strombo, in particular, as a cool way to promote the album. I also loved Gord's outfits on that tour, especially his painter hats. I still rock one today because of it!
NegPhil Wrote:I think The Tragically Hips music is measured by Pre World Container and Post World Container. WC was the bands turning point from a “bar band” to mature expert musicians.
I'd put this turning point a whole 15 years earlier. I think Hip moved beyond the "bar band" moniker after UTH. The songs on RA show a remarkable lyricism and musicianship far beyond any bar band. That album had great stories (TP), political statements (Born in the Water), and an emotional intimacy (Fiddler's) that no bar band could pull off. They no doubt played and entertained like they were getting a cut of the beer sales at the local watering hole, but they were a fully realized rock band at that point.
NegPhil Wrote:I think The Tragically Hips music is measured by Pre World Container and Post World Container. WC was the bands turning point from a “bar band” to mature expert musicians.
As mentioned above, I'd personally move that career migration back. I was lucky enough to see shows from UTH onward, and really recall the Road Apples and then even more so FC shows as a huge jump in terms of their musical abilities but more presentation and pacing. However, not counting MMP tour it was likely their best large scale arena tour (or at least my favorite arena shows).
But I do agree that WC brought a visible change in marketing. There seemed to be more of a publicity push behind the album, I recall more interviews than previous. I think pre-album was a great interview with Gord and Sook Yin-Lee, where they walked around ROM or another TO art gallery and Gord was more insightful then I'd heard previous.
I also think it was possibly the era where Gord became much more a performer, with what seems to be more thought out stage clothing, the hankies, painting the audience, etc.
Good observations here. And I think the media push for this album was because this was a big album. The Hip intentionally set out to make a make a big album in every way. They swung for the fence.
I wonder if "big media push" is synonymous with "Gord Downie is doing the press on this one"? I was in a MuchMusic audience in June 2002 when Rob and Paul were at Much to do promo for IVL. I showed up that day knowing "the Hip" were going to be interviewed, but not knowing who was actually going to be there. I remember a number of people in the line-up waiting to get in to the studio being disappointed when we found out it was *just* Rob and Paul and that Gord D would not be present. I was happy to hear the guitarists interviewed (Rob, in particular, is quite interesting and articulate), but there is no question that most people want to hear from the charismatic guy who wrote the songs. I recall Gord not doing much, if any press for IVL, and very little for IBE. Understandable given that he was in the midst of putting out 5 albums in 5 years - 3 Hip and 2 solo.
When it came time to promote WC, I'm sure it was a conscious decision to have Gord front and centre. It's probably as simple as CBC saying, "We'll put Gord on for 15 minutes of interviews with Strombo, but if you're offering us 15 minutes with Johnny, we'll just stick to the performance." I know the band has talked about drawing straws for album promotion and doing interviews and press, and they've done a good job of splitting it up in the past. However, nothing will promote a record better than an interview with Downie, and I think that's the main difference with the WC promotion.
Interesting thoughts. I'd add that the Hip's commercial profile had pretty much been in free-fall after M@W, with IVL selling poorly and IBE getting hardly any attention at all. WC may indeed have been - from conception to marketing - a concentrated effort to staunch the bleeding and re-establish their status as commercially relevant contemporary artists. Bob Rock, for whatever reason, is a guy artists tend to recruit when they want hits (Ron Sexsmith futilely did the same thing). The results were unfortunate to say the least - I wish they'd had the gumption to recruit a producer who has actually listened to music made after 1985, since it'd have been really interesting to hear a genuinely innovative production approach - but this does seem to have been the intention. I think it's a forlorn strategy and that aging bands are better off just pursuing their artistic muse and hoping the popularity wheel lands on their square again at some point. But hey, they tried. At least with WATS they mostly dropped the bombast and the slickness and concentrated on just making listenable music. With mixed results.