[grimes]

Let's try that again: "What we need to do is develop an economy based on renewable, sustainable resources."

Chris I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately it won't happen as long as gas is cheap (yes kids, gas is still cheap here - refer to Detrious' post above if you don't believe me).

Frustrating thing is, the pig-headed tories are saying they're not stepping in to stop this ridiculous increase. Unbelievable.

:roll: Realistically there isn't anything they can do about it. And even if there was, they'd be right not to do it. Just curious, if the Tories are "pig-headed" cause they won't reduce your gas prices, what does that make the Liberals, who are contemplating making a massive new carbon tax part of their next election platform?

[chris]

OK, assuming that we are talking the US gallon, which is 3.785 litres, I am currently paying $9.50 Canadian for one...

It's £1.28 a litre here, highest in Europe I think...
We're screwed.

D

(and the math has been 1.28 x 3.785 = 4.8448 Conversion from £ to Can$ = 1.96099)

And for us Canucks that would work out to $2.51 Canadian per litre ~ or double what I paid last week for a litre.

The government should keep their noses out of the price of gas/oil. Let them collect outrageous sums of gas taxes... It's what they do with that revenue that I want changed. Dump it all into improving public transit, incentives for individuals who take transit, ride their bikes, or (*gasp*), walk instead of driving. Invest in research and development of alternative energy sources and other methods that will reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.

And tax the shit out of the major corporations who insist that the price of oil is completely out of their control yet the continue to return multi-billion dollar profits.

[thedarkcanuck]

OK, assuming that we are talking the US gallon, which is 3.785 litres, I am currently paying $9.50 Canadian for one...

It's £1.28 a litre here, highest in Europe I think...
We're screwed.

D

(and the math has been 1.28 x 3.785 = 4.8448 Conversion from £ to Can$ = 1.96099)

And for us Canucks that would work out to $2.51 Canadian per litre ~ or double what I paid last week for a litre.

The government should keep their noses out of the price of gas/oil. Let them collect outrageous sums of gas taxes... It's what they do with that revenue that I want changed. Dump it all into improving public transit, incentives for individuals who take transit, ride their bikes, or (*gasp*), walk instead of driving. Invest in research and development of alternative energy sources and other methods that will reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.

And tax the shit out of the major corporations who insist that the price of oil is [b]completely out of their control yet the continue to return multi-billion dollar profits[/b].

hear hear

[VioletlightHeron]

OK, assuming that we are talking the US gallon, which is 3.785 litres, I am currently paying $9.50 Canadian for one...

It's £1.28 a litre here, highest in Europe I think...
We're screwed.

D

(and the math has been 1.28 x 3.785 = 4.8448 Conversion from £ to Can$ = 1.96099)

And for us Canucks that would work out to $2.51 Canadian per litre ~ or double what I paid last week for a litre.

The government should keep their noses out of the price of gas/oil. Let them collect outrageous sums of gas taxes... It's what they do with that revenue that I want changed. Dump it all into improving public transit, incentives for individuals who take transit, ride their bikes, or (*gasp*), walk instead of driving. Invest in research and development of alternative energy sources and other methods that will reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.

And tax the shit out of the major corporations who insist that the price of oil is completely out of their control yet the continue to return multi-billion dollar profits.

Well, I will agree with part of what you said here Chris, local and federal government should invest the gas tax revenue in increasing public transit, et al but the major oil corporations really do not have complete control over the price at the pump for 3 major reasons;

1. They buy the majority of the light sweet crude that is made into gasoline for sale here from OPEC, Venezuela, Nigeria and other countries which have a vested interest in keeping the price of oil high and/or have major supply issues (ie Nigeria and Venezuela).

2. Lawmakers in their utter brilliance have restricted the ability of domestic producers to search and drill for oil in North America. Congress in 1930 specifically set aside what is now ANWR as a naval oil reserve to be explored and produced at a latter date. But, the hardcore environmentalists in Congress have refused to open ANWR for exploration even though the proposed footprint of the drilling platforms is something like 5% of the land in ANWR and concerns like caribou migrations and calving grounds have been solved and implemented at Prudhoe Bay.

3. Local, state and federal governments have refused to speed up the construction of new refineries. There has not been a new oil refinery opened in North America since 1976. At the same time, there have been new regulations imposed by the EPA regarding reformulation of winter/summer blends and gasoline blends specifically imposed for areas of the US that have smog problems. The need for the reformulated gas is without a doubt a necessity to deal with the smog problems in the Chicago and LA area, but the regulators and lawmakers seem to think it is easy to implement these requirements and keep the same level of production up all without expanding capacity.

I think that if we made it easier for domestic oil producers to expand capacity and drill for more oil here, we'd have a hell of an easier time lowering the price of oil, which in large part is conditioned on the laws of supply and demand.

[tth_fan]

With regards to TTH_Fan's ideas, I find it highly ironic that a western canadian would advocate the economic shafting of his own province.

I'm also guessing that he's too young to know that the implications in Alberta of Trudeau's National Energy Program resulted were thousands of people walking away from their homes (as real estate prices dropped 40%), and bankruptcies increased 150%.

I'm from Ontario, so the NEP certainly didn't impact my family like it impacted people who grew up here, but in talking to people who did grow up here, you'd think it happened yesterday (and it certainly explains the long standing contempt that many Albertans feel towards the Liberal party).

Ya, because it's so much better today, with all the low-income famillies having to leave Alberta because of high rent (which keeps getting higher), and houses that are being sold at ridiculously high prices. If they don't leave because of rent, they stay, and have to make huge cutbacks on food, heating, heathcare related services, and simple services for their children (like extracurricular activities). This is no better, if not worse.

[NegPhil]

OK, assuming that we are talking the US gallon, which is 3.785 litres, I am currently paying $9.50 Canadian for one...

It's £1.28 a litre here, highest in Europe I think...
We're screwed.

D

(and the math has been 1.28 x 3.785 = 4.8448 Conversion from £ to Can$ = 1.96099)

And for us Canucks that would work out to $2.51 Canadian per litre ~ or double what I paid last week for a litre.

The government should keep their noses out of the price of gas/oil. Let them collect outrageous sums of gas taxes... It's what they do with that revenue that I want changed. Dump it all into improving public transit, incentives for individuals who take transit, ride their bikes, or (*gasp*), walk instead of driving. Invest in research and development of alternative energy sources and other methods that will reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.

And tax the shit out of the major corporations who insist that the price of oil is completely out of their control yet the continue to return multi-billion dollar profits.

Well, I will agree with part of what you said here Chris, local and federal government should invest the gas tax revenue in increasing public transit, et al but the major oil corporations really do not have complete control over the price at the pump for 3 major reasons;

1. They buy the majority of the light sweet crude that is made into gasoline for sale here from OPEC, Venezuela, Nigeria and other countries which have a vested interest in keeping the price of oil high and/or have major supply issues (ie Nigeria and Venezuela).

2. Lawmakers in their utter brilliance have restricted the ability of domestic producers to search and drill for oil in North America. Congress in 1930 specifically set aside what is now ANWR as a naval oil reserve to be explored and produced at a latter date. But, the hardcore environmentalists in Congress have refused to open ANWR for exploration even though the proposed footprint of the drilling platforms is something like 5% of the land in ANWR and concerns like caribou migrations and calving grounds have been solved and implemented at Prudhoe Bay.

3. Local, state and federal governments have refused to speed up the construction of new refineries. There has not been a new oil refinery opened in North America since 1976. At the same time, there have been new regulations imposed by the EPA regarding reformulation of winter/summer blends and gasoline blends specifically imposed for areas of the US that have smog problems. The need for the reformulated gas is without a doubt a necessity to deal with the smog problems in the Chicago and LA area, but the regulators and lawmakers seem to think it is easy to implement these requirements and keep the same level of production up all without expanding capacity.

I think that if we made it easier for domestic oil producers to expand capacity and drill for more oil here, we'd have a hell of an easier time lowering the price of oil, which in large part is conditioned on the laws of supply and demand.

Do you have that propaganda downloaded directly into your head via satellite or do you dedicate face time everyday to Fox News Programing?

[VioletlightHeron]

Do you have that propaganda downloaded directly into your head via satellite or do you dedicate face time everyday to Fox News Programing?

How about retorting with an actual arguement rather than farting rhetorically into the wind and getting it all over yourself? :? cratch:

[cferneyh]

Ya, because it's so much better today, with all the low-income famillies having to leave Alberta because of high rent (which keeps getting higher), and houses that are being sold at ridiculously high prices. If they don't leave because of rent, they stay, and have to make huge cutbacks on food, heating, heathcare related services, and simple services for their children (like extracurricular activities). This is no better, if not worse.

You kill me. Seriously, what colour is the sky in the part of Alberta that you live in? I'd love to see your statistics - ANY statistics - on the proportion of low income families "having" to leave Alberta because of "high rent". I really would.

Before you even try, take a look at this:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/analysis/popdwell/ProvTerr5.cfm">http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census0 ... vTerr5.cfm</a><!-- m -->

While gains through migration exchanges with the rest of the country are still the main factor in Alberta's population growth....

Additionally, the unemployment rate in Alberta is currently 3.3%. In 1985, the unemployment rate in Alberta was 11.1%.

Yeah, it's "worse" right now. :roll:

[NegPhil]

Do you have that propaganda downloaded directly into your head via satellite or do you dedicate face time everyday to Fox News Programing?

How about retorting with an actual arguement rather than farting rhetorically into the wind and getting it all over yourself? :? cratch:

Yuck.

How's this?


1. Each spring, the price of gas rises as refineries switch from gasoline blended for winter to gasoline blended for summer. But that switch is usually complete by May 1 and is only a small part of this year's surge.

"There is nothing really that has happened to justify a 20-cent increase," said Jim Rink, AAA spokesman. "The biggest factor is the commodities market reaction to speculation of how high the price of oil is going to go."

Rink said reports -- such as last week's prediction by Goldman Sachs that the price of oil could climb to $200 per barrel in the next six to 24 months -- are now self-fulfilling prophesies. On Wall Street, hedge funds, mutual funds and other investors are bidding up crude-oil prices in anticipation of even higher prices."

The Detroit Free Press
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080513/BUSINESS06/805130345">http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... /805130345</a><!-- m -->


2. Refinery capacity. Democratic lawmakers questioned whether the oil companies have done enough to increase refinery capacity.

"We have an administration that is refusing to do anything to expand the capacity that we have except more and more drilling, and that is not the answer," Wasserman-Schultz said.

Increasing refinery capacity would add more product to the market and would held bring gas prices down. But Democrats argue that oil companies have been reluctant to invest in refinery capacity, which is suggestive of price fixing.

"I can't say that there's evidence that you are manipulating the price, but I believe that you probably are," Rep. Wasserman-Schultz said.

Simon maintained that new refineries are not necessary and that the oil industry has expanded capacity at existing facilities "commensurate with demand."

"The market is working - I know it's painful - but it's working," he said.

CNN Money.Com
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/22/news/economy/house_oil_execs/">http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/22/news/ec ... oil_execs/</a><!-- m -->



3. Bodman reiterated to members of the House Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming that part of the long-term solution to America's energy problems is increasing domestic oil production, and that Congress should allow drilling in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
A new report issued on Thursday by the federal Energy Information Administration said if ANWR were opened to drilling this year, oil from the area would not be available to the market until 2018 and output would peak at 780,000 barrels a day in 2027.
The extra ANWR oil would also do little to lower crude oil costs, pushing down the price of oil by just 75 cents a barrel in 2025, the EIA said.

The Guardian
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7534370">http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7534370</a><!-- m -->

[tth_fan]

Ya, because it's so much better today, with all the low-income famillies having to leave Alberta because of high rent (which keeps getting higher), and houses that are being sold at ridiculously high prices. If they don't leave because of rent, they stay, and have to make huge cutbacks on food, heating, heathcare related services, and simple services for their children (like extracurricular activities). This is no better, if not worse.

You kill me. Seriously, what colour is the sky in the part of Alberta that you live in? I'd love to see your statistics - ANY statistics - on the proportion of low income families "having" to leave Alberta because of "high rent". I really would.

Before you even try, take a look at this:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/analysis/popdwell/ProvTerr5.cfm">http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census0 ... vTerr5.cfm</a><!-- m -->

While gains through migration exchanges with the rest of the country are still the main factor in Alberta's population growth....

Additionally, the unemployment rate in Alberta is currently 3.3%. In 1985, the unemployment rate in Alberta was 11.1%.

Yeah, it's "worse" right now. :roll:

Ya, cause low-income families have to move to Saskatchewan and even further out east, and rich families are moving to Alberta. Alberta is going beyond being a "have" province. It's becoming a province for the rich and mighty. You probably don't see it in Calgary, because for the most part, only high-income families lived there to begin with (oh, and just keep walking by those homeless people. If you ignore them, they go away).
In Edmonton and area there are a lot of people that can't afford much and have had to choose between necessities. Shelters are always maxed out, whether it be for adults, families, or youth. Not to mention the farmers who have a hard time getting by. They're almost forced to sell their land so some bigwig company can build condos that people who make between $30,000-$42,000 a year can't afford.
So, stats can be read however you like. You see a population growth. I see low-income people suffering and having to leave, and the rich taking over.

[VioletlightHeron]

Great, now here's my reply.

With regards to refinery capacity and gasoline blends, I would argue that there is not a reluctance to expand, but a reluctance on oil companies' part to deal with state and federal environmental regulations, not to mention local NIMBY activist groups and environmental activists opposition. Coupled with the high cost of opening a new plant (see articles) and environmental groups demands that any new or expanded refinery add expensive clean-air technology, it is not much of a surprise that there hasn't been a new oil refinery opened in 32 years. The irony is the cheap price of oil in the 80's and 90's actually killed momentum for expanded/new capacity because there would not be a good return on their investment. Gasoline blending for winter/summer use is only one small part of that problem. A bigger concern is how tight capacity is, even with the 21.1 billion dollars spent from 1997 to 2001 on upgrades and meeting environmental standards. People such as yourself, NegPhil, seem to believe that there is some evil corporate scheme to drive up the cost of oil and reap windfall profits when there is no such bogeyman. The oil commodities markets react to outside events, such as refining plant fires, higher demand for oil and gas from expanding economies such as China and India, as well as uncertainity (sp?) and geopolitical instability ; ie Iran running around acting like a nut, Chavez in Venezuela acting like a nut, Nigerian tribesmen and rebels demanding their fair share of the country's oil profits (as well they should, the southern Nigerian delta where all the oil comes from has been getting squat from their government for years!). This is what drives up the price of oil not your evil corporate boogeyman who wants more money for a Lear jet. I hope you'll eventually come to your senses and realize this.

Oil refinery capacity articles:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0921/p11s02-usec.html">http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0921/p11s02-usec.html</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6019739/">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6019739/</a><!-- m -->

[cferneyh]

rich families are moving to Alberta.....a province for the rich and mighty.....only high-income families lived there to begin with.....stats can be read however you like. You see a population growth. I see low-income people suffering and having to leave.

So, where are your stats of "low income people having to leave Alberta", exactly? Oh right, you don't have any. Your argument - as per usual - is based on your personal opinion and is not grounded in any reality whatsoever.

Your statement that "only rich families are moving to Alberta" is only exceeded in pure idiocy by your statement that "only high-income families lived there (Calgary) to begin with". Keep 'em coming!

[grimes]

OK, assuming that we are talking the US gallon, which is 3.785 litres, I am currently paying $9.50 Canadian for one...

It's £1.28 a litre here, highest in Europe I think...
We're screwed.

D

(and the math has been 1.28 x 3.785 = 4.8448 Conversion from £ to Can$ = 1.96099)

And for us Canucks that would work out to $2.51 Canadian per litre ~ or double what I paid last week for a litre.

The government should keep their noses out of the price of gas/oil. Let them collect outrageous sums of gas taxes... It's what they do with that revenue that I want changed. Dump it all into improving public transit, incentives for individuals who take transit, ride their bikes, or (*gasp*), walk instead of driving. Invest in research and development of alternative energy sources and other methods that will reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.

And tax the shit out of the major corporations who insist that the price of oil is completely out of their control yet the continue to return multi-billion dollar profits.

Well, I will agree with part of what you said here Chris, local and federal government should invest the gas tax revenue in increasing public transit, et al but the major oil corporations really do not have complete control over the price at the pump for 3 major reasons;

1. They buy the majority of the light sweet crude that is made into gasoline for sale here from OPEC, Venezuela, Nigeria and other countries which have a vested interest in keeping the price of oil high and/or have major supply issues (ie Nigeria and Venezuela).

2. Lawmakers in their utter brilliance have restricted the ability of domestic producers to search and drill for oil in North America. Congress in 1930 specifically set aside what is now ANWR as a naval oil reserve to be explored and produced at a latter date. But, the hardcore environmentalists in Congress have refused to open ANWR for exploration even though the proposed footprint of the drilling platforms is something like 5% of the land in ANWR and concerns like caribou migrations and calving grounds have been solved and implemented at Prudhoe Bay.

3. Local, state and federal governments have refused to speed up the construction of new refineries. There has not been a new oil refinery opened in North America since 1976. At the same time, there have been new regulations imposed by the EPA regarding reformulation of winter/summer blends and gasoline blends specifically imposed for areas of the US that have smog problems. The need for the reformulated gas is without a doubt a necessity to deal with the smog problems in the Chicago and LA area, but the regulators and lawmakers seem to think it is easy to implement these requirements and keep the same level of production up all without expanding capacity.

I think that if we made it easier for domestic oil producers to expand capacity and drill for more oil here, we'd have a hell of an easier time lowering the price of oil, which in large part is conditioned on the laws of supply and demand.

I think you missed Chris' main point entirely, which to refresh was:

What we need to do is develop an economy based on renewable, sustainable resources.

Increasing oil production is the last thing we need if we're going have any hope of making that happen.