[april_wino1]

jnccpf and grooveless touque, I understand what you both are saying. The only thing is, I'm only 17 years old - meaning I won't be able to vote in this year's elections - so I tend to feel a bit helpless at times. Sometimes, I wish I didn't even have to worry about politics - because that topic can get very stressful and depressing. Actually, I'm not either conservative or liberal - essentually, I'm a centrist, and I tend to believe that we wopuld be better off without politics. Anyway, you guys do make some good points, though - and it's possible that I might rethink my position later. Anyway, I'm just unsure of what to think at this moment. To complicate matters matters even more, I'm not even sure where I stand as a Christian. I do believe in the existance of God and all - but I'm not sure what church I most agree with and such. anyway, I'm getting a bit off-topic - but I do need to some time to sort of my life and where I stand and such.

[grooveless touque]

(To JNC)

You said the same thing I did about Iraq, but thanks for clarifying the "pro/anti-choice" thing. You 1, Crossfire person 0.

Politically, Kerry does say States should decide, but personally he is opposed to gay marriage. However I should point out that this is NOT, repeat NOT, a case of flip-flopping; it's a case of a leader being smart enough to know his personal ideology is not everybody's. Kerry 1, Bush 0.

[april_wino1]

she's gotta be the smartest American girl ever..

Thanks

[grooveless touque]

In that light, april (if I may call you april for lack of a real name!) I do understand your decision completely. Removing yourself from a tense political minefield while you make important decisions about who you are and what you believe is an awful lot smarter than staying in the situation and being overwhelmed and frustrated. Kudos! I never said you weren't smart!

[The Darkest Canuck]

now let's get married and make babies! :mrgreen:

[april_wino1]

In that light, april (if I may call you april for lack of a real name!) I do understand your decision completely. Removing yourself from a tense political minefield while you make important decisions about who you are and what you believe is an awful lot smarter than staying in the situation and being overwhelmed and frustrated. Kudos! I never said you weren't smart!

Hey, thanks!

[The Darkest Canuck]

now let's get married and make babies! :mrgreen:

[VioletlightHeron]

The reason I don't support Kerry is because he is disingenious (sp?) about his motivations for voting to give Bush the authority to wage war on Iraq and his belief in "process", no matter how screwed up the situation would get or how much our national security would be endangered by strictly following "process". Kerry didn't like the way Bush was dealing with the Security Council and Iraq and he should have simply said so instead of voting for the resolution and then saying he was misled to about Bush's intentions. It is pretty obvious that Bush intended to invade Iraq and had the support of most Americans. Kerry was thinking about the political consequences of his own career and ambitions if he didn't go along and give Bush the authority he needed to invade. Kerry is also too wrapped up in the political process game. Bush, Cheney and Condi Rice made the judgement, correctly in my view, that Saddam would string along the inspections shell game until NATO and the European governments were satisfied and gave up. Saddam's best bet would have been to open up to inspections and have the world see that his attempts at producing WMD were pretty laughable because the European governments didnt have the political willpower to go beyond their WMD concern and deal with Saddam's brutal treatment of his own people. Like Stephen said, there is genocide happening as we speak in the Sudan and the world community hasnt the willpower to go in and put a stop to it because they don't see an exit strategy and they have a keen awareness of their own military weaknesses. Kerry is a good man, no doubt, but he doesnt have the strength of conviction in his own opinions and beliefs to withstand popular dissent.

[The Darkest Canuck]

really the whole thing makes me think we should be waging war against America...yeah i said it come get me :twisted:

[VioletlightHeron]

lol bring it on baby :lol:

[The Darkest Canuck]

oh i will, i'll beat you all to death with my hockeysticks!

[grooveless touque]

Strength of conviction? If you want to talk about strength of conviction, how about Bush, Cheney, etc shitting the bed on AFGHANISTAN?! They got rid of the Taliban and now the country is falling into complete and total anarchy with warlords looming large and the prospect of the Taliban seizing power in obscure regions is realistic again. There is NO battle plan for Afghanistan and millions of people there will continue to suffer while Bush and his crooks...er, cronies...continue to distract the world with their failures in Iraq.

Don't ever forget that as bad as Iraq might seem, Afghanistan is such a quagmir that the US wants to wash their hands of the whole problem...the infuriating thing is, Afghanistan is not a problem, it's a COUNTRY!! A whole country with millions who need Americans to follow up on their initial war to avoid the entire region collapsing. But no, there's nothing to be GAINED in Afghanistan, so Bush continues to fraudulently complain that we can't leave Iraq because somehow they have completely unproven links to terrorist groups.

Bush has no strength of conviction other than where his interests are served.

[The Darkest Canuck]

"Bushleaguer"

How does he do it? how do they do it? uncanny and immutable.
This is such a happening tailpipe of a party.
Like sugar, the guests are so refined, (look like melting mice)

A confidence man, but why so beleagued?
He’s not a leader, he’s a texas leaguer
Swinging for the fence, got lucky with a strike
Drilling for fear, makes the job simple
Born on third, thinks he got a triple

Blackout weaves it’s way through the cities
Blackout weaves it’s way through the cities
Blackout weaves it’s way,...

I remember when you sang
That song about today
Now it’s tomorrow and
Everything has changed

A think tank of aloof multiplication
A nicotine wish and a colossus decanter
Retrenchment and foolishness
What’s the ruckus?
The haves have not a clue
The immenseness of suffering
And the odd negotiation, a rarity
With onionskin plausibility of life,
And a keyboard reaffirmation

Blackout weaves it’s way through the cities
Blackout weaves it’s way through the cities
Blackout weaves it’s way,...

I remember when you sang
That song about today
Now it’s tomorrow and
Everything has changed

[The Horrible Esthete]

It's not. Is it hard to understand that a large number of us feel it's wrong and that corruption comes not from structure, but from leaving things to the business elites and the invisible hand?

Not it's not hard to understand, and that's why from this point foreward, debate on this topic will just swirl round and round without making any real progress. You love your country, and believe in it. The same goes for me. I don't don't see any problem with that, since we are all entitled to our opinions

Here, however, is what I don't understand. I think your opinions and perspectives are valid regarding this subject, and clearly see how your views are different than mine. Different, but not necessarily wrong. In contrast, the attitude that you, as well as many other Canadians I've endeavored to discuss this topic with, seems awfully accusatory and villifying towards American ideals. You even said "a large number of us feel it's wrong" when you commented on my perspective.

Canadians have every right to be proud of their nation and believe in the principles it is founded upon; why do I always find myself defending the pride I have for my country and its foundations? The quality of life is good here, too, and if you seriously try to tell me that the US has historically had a negative overall impact on the quality of life for people elsewhere around the globe, it will surely fall on deaf ears.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, and by the way - corruption doesn't come solely from "leaving things to the business elites and the invisible hand"; corruption comes from any type of soverign power, combined with a lack of checks and balances over such authority. Still, it pervades our system; but I think that there is greater opportunity for corruption to be exposed and punished in this system than in any other system on the planet.....

[grooveless touque]

Not with Bush and Cheney being in bed with all kinds of major corporations. You claim you don't want government control, but behind the scenes, Bush's people and the corporate heads are controlling America's entire destiny. That doesn't scare you more than a little socialism which eschews corporate rule?

By the way, have you NOTHING to say about Afghanistan? Not surprising. I imagine that's mighty embarassing for you conservatives, trying to attack Kerry for lack on conviction!