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Sean Burke scared of a vote - Printable Version

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- VioletlightHeron - 02-07-2005

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:extending the season! if anything it should be shorter!

you know a lot of people that actually went to Penguins games, went to see Lemieux (when he wasn't injured), a lot of people in Atlanta go to see Heatly and Kovalchuk, Tootoo's got quite the following in Nashville, Luongo (along with Boumeister) is pretty much all Florida's got goin for them, Rick Nash in Columbus, Bret Hull in Phoenix now, people at Rangers games sure weren't there because their team was winning, they were there to see the Rangers' stars, and possibly the other teams' stars as well. Once again you're wrong, and once again you try to make something out to look like it's black and white, when it's a rather colourful situation.

I think you are wrong regarding the reasons people go to see games; some do go to see the "star" of the team but the majority of the fans go to watch their team win. There's a paradox the PA hasn't quite understood here; rising player salaries (that are a result of boneheaded owners and agents seeking to maximize a contract for a marginal player) force ticket prices,concession prices, etc up to the point where the fan comes to feel its not worth it to pay $100 bucks or more to go see a league in action where the have-not teams start at a disadvantage. That's one area MLB is slowly addressing in terms of disparity between the small market and large market teams and where the NHLPA is sadly digging in its heels.

- The Darkest Canuck - 02-07-2005

what i'm saying is that the hardcore fans go wether or not the team is doing good or not, and there are lots of those people all over Canada, and in the States too, but in the non-traditional hockeymarkets like ATL, COL, NSH,ect, the star player can be more of a draw than the actual game for lots of people, they hear a lot of good things about so and so, and that brings them to the game.

and the MLB is waaaaaaaaaay worse as far as the disparity between the haves and have nots, just look at how their playoffs turned out, and then look at the NHL..CALGARY WAS IN THE FINALS! CALGARY! if Calgary can do it, anyone can, they were a basement team one year, and then the next year (largely in part to Kipper) they win/lose the cup.

part of the reason ticket prices are so high in some places is because there's such a high demand for them, and the owners know that they can get away with charging and arm and a leg, because the arena will be packed anyway.

- cferneyh - 02-07-2005

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:you know a lot of people that actually went to Penguins games, went to see Lemieux (when he wasn't injured), a lot of people in Atlanta go to see Heatly and Kovalchuk, Tootoo's got quite the following in Nashville, Luongo (along with Boumeister) is pretty much all Florida's got goin for them, Rick Nash in Columbus, Bret Hull in Phoenix now, people at Rangers games sure weren't there because their team was winning, they were there to see the Rangers' stars, and possibly the other teams' stars as well. Once again you're wrong, and once again you try to make something out to look like it's black and white, when it's a rather colourful situation.

You know, I think exposing your ignorance is starting to become my hobby. Even though its like shooting fish in a barrel.

Tootoo's got quite the following in Nashville. Are you KIDDING ME? He played EIGHT MINUTES a game last year. You mean to tell me that "quite a following" goes to see Nashville games just to watch Tootoo play eight minutes? Yeah, right. Where'd you get that from? Oh right, your ass.

Mario is one of the few players that people would buy tickets to watch play. I won't dispute that.

OK, now I'm going to introduce some math. Read it slowly and try to keep up. Guess what these figures are:

2001/2002: 18,136
2002/2003: 17,744
2003/2004: 17,339

Give up? Those are the average attendance figures at Columbus games over their first three seasons. Note that the lowest figure is last year - Rick Nash's rookie year. That's right moron. Fewer people are going now, with Rick Nash in the lineup, then in their previous two years of existence.

Do you want to keep playing?

OK, guess what these numbers are:

2001/2002: 13,668
2002/2003: 13,476
2003/2004: 15,121

Give up? Of course you do. Your brain is likely about to explode with all of these numbers. Well, those are the attendance figures for the Atlanta Thrashers over the last three years. Now that's funny, because Heatley and Kovalchuk were both there for 01/02 and 02/03, but Heatley missed significant time in 03/04 and attendance went up 12%. How can that be?!? Could it be that it was because it was Atlanta's best season to date, they got off to their best start ever, and they were in the playoff race until the last couple of weeks of the season? Nah! Couldn't be that!

Next up. Oh right, Florida and Luongo. Let's see - attendance for Florida in 01/02 when the immortal Trevor Kidd was their starting goaltender: 16,084. And this past season with Luongo: 15,904. Yeah, TONS of people go to see Luongo. No wait - that's LESS people than with KIDD in net!

Lastly, the reason the Rag$ sell out, win, lose, or draw is because that's the nature of the market they are in. MSG would sell out if the Rag$ iced an atom team, much like MLG would sell out in the 80s despite how horrible the Leafs were. Its NEW YORK CITY. You know - 11 million people to draw from. You do the math.

Give me some more nonsense I can destroy with facts, PLEASE. It's getting fun!

- The Darkest Canuck - 02-07-2005

man, with all those statistics and all that pent up rage, it sounds like you must lead a very boring, unfufilling, and miserable life...that's the impression that i get.


are you trying to tell me people with TooToo signs up in the stands didn't come to see him specifically? they wanna see him hit somebody or scrap! Americans love that shit, and rightfully so, it entertaining, the kid is fun to watch no doubt, he might not be a supestar, but he is definately a fan favourite in Nashville.

attendance was down in Nash's rookie season, yes, most likely because the novelty of having an nhl team was starting to weare off, can you imagine how terrible the numbers would've been then without him!!!!!!!!! he's probably the only reason that the number only went down by a few hundred, instead of a thousand or something ridiculous. just because less people are going to the games, it doesn't mean that less people are coming just to see Nash, you'd have to run a very loooooooong looooooong survey to figure that out now wouldn't you? . . . MORON!

ATL: yeah, of course the numbers are going up when they're winning, i didn't say they wouldn't, BUT, they would've gone up even more HAD HEATLY NOT MISSED AS MUCH TIME AS HE DID!

NY: sure it'll sell out no matter what...because NY, even if they suck, are an original 6 team, with a huge fanbase to fraw on (from casual fairweathers to hardcores), and they have a team full of full-fledged SUPERSTARS!!!!!!!!! if they had a team like Columbus out there on the ice they wouldn't sell out, because there'd be nothing interesing at all to see, not even a nice goal by a superstar in a losing effort. it'd just be a horrible team getting smashed, with no Superstars making super plays, and nothing to get excited about, and nobody wants to see that...maybe Leafs fans (just kidding people), speaking of the Leafs, yeah sure they sell out all the time because they're the beloved Leafs, BUT, THEY PLAY EXCITING WINNING HOCKEY! AND THEY HAVE SUPERSTARS!

as far as Florida goes, they had a better record in 03-04, a more competitive team, and the leagues' hottest goalie to top it all off, yet their attendance was down, that's just fucked, and Florida Panthers fans suck, that right there to me is enough proof that they should not have a franchise. it's pretty sad to think that a team could finish higher than they had in the previous two seasons (possibly longer) and somehow manage to have lower attendance...

- cferneyh - 02-08-2005

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:are you trying to tell me people with TooToo signs up in the stands didn't come to see him specifically? they wanna see him hit somebody or scrap! Americans love that shit, and rightfully so, it entertaining, the kid is fun to watch no doubt, he might not be a supestar, but he is definately a fan favourite in Nashville.


And how many people go to Nashville games and hold up Tootoo signs again? Ten? WOW!

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:attendance was down in Nash's rookie season, yes, most likely because the novelty of having an nhl team was starting to weare off, can you imagine how terrible the numbers would've been then without him!!!!!!!!!


Attendence being down because the novelty has worn off is my point, clown. And since there was no noticeable rise in their attendance towards the end of the season when it was clear that Nash was going to be amoung the contenders for ROY, yeah, I can imagine what their numbers would have been without him: the exact same as with him.

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:ATL: yeah, of course the numbers are going up when they're winning, i didn't say they wouldn't, BUT, they would've gone up even more HAD HEATLY NOT MISSED AS MUCH TIME AS HE DID!


Umm, actually, you said people go to games in Atlanta to watch Heatley and Kovulchuk. I said that winning brings in more fans than any player today.

So let me get this straight - with Heatley and Kovalchuk in the lineup in 01/02 and 02/03, attendance was pretty much flat. Then, with Heatley out of the lineup for most of 03/04 but with Atlanta playing better, attendance goes up and you say it would have gone up even more with Heatley? Well that makes a lot of sense. Great coherent argument on your behalf. No wonder you are in your 7th year of high school.

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:NY: sure it'll sell out no matter what...because NY, even if they suck, are an original 6 team, with a huge fanbase to fraw on (from casual fairweathers to hardcores), and they have a team full of full-fledged SUPERSTARS!!!!!!!!! if they had a team like Columbus out there on the ice they wouldn't sell out, because there'd be nothing interesing at all to see, not even a nice goal by a superstar in a losing effort. it'd just be a horrible team getting smashed, with no Superstars making super plays, and nothing to get excited about, and nobody wants to see that.


Oh, this is another great one. People in New York would rather watch a bunch of overpaid "superstars" lose time and time again than watch a team of no names and hard workers lose and lose again. Yeah, right. Because New York is known as a town that is so kind to its underperforming superstars. And why would you use Columbus in your example? I thought you said people in Columbus go to watch Rick Nash. But if Rick Nash was in New York they wouldn't go? Gotta love it when you make it even easier for me by contradicting yourself.

So what stars were on the Rag$ in 83/84 when their average attendance was 17,394 (which was full capacity prior to the renovation in '91) despite having a team that went 26-44-10? Reijo Ruotsalainen? Pierre Larouche? Yeah, the fans in NY really stopped going to those games and stopped watching that crappy team of nobodies. Another brilliant point by you! Too bad the facts get in the way. Again.

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:speaking of the Leafs, yeah sure they sell out all the time because they're the beloved Leafs, BUT, THEY PLAY EXCITING WINNING HOCKEY! AND THEY HAVE SUPERSTARS!

Go back to my original post, illiterate boy. I said the Leafs of the 80s. What superstars were on those teams?

Like I said - it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Can't wait for your next round of incoherent babbling. :roll:

- The Darkest Canuck - 02-08-2005

Sittler? Clark? MacDonald? Salming?...

- cferneyh - 02-08-2005

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:Sittler? Clark? MacDonald? Salming?...

Sigh.

Sittler got traded in '82,

McDonald was traded in '79/80.

Salming was no longer an impact player by 82/83.

Wendel Clark played 80 games ONCE in the 80s. Between 87 and 89 he played a total of 53 games. And you've really lowered your definition of "superstar" if a guy whose best year in the high-flying 80s was 60 points was a "superstar".

Next?

- The Darkest Canuck - 02-08-2005

those guys are all superstars, actually, they're legends now, and they all played for the Leafs in the 80's...

btw, i forgot to mention Vaive, Leeman, and Turnbull.

- cferneyh - 02-08-2005

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:those guys are all superstars, actually, they're legends now, and they all played for the Leafs in the 80's...

btw, i forgot to mention Vaive, Leeman, and Turnbull.

If McDonald was traded to Colorado in 79, how did he play for the Leafs in the 80s?

Gary Leeman! OK, now you are just getting obsurd. Gary Leeman a "superstar"? Wow. Are you ever reaching. People went to Leaf games in the 80s to watch Gary Leeman. That's priceless. Really - keep 'em coming. Gary Leeman's up there with Dave Keon, Darryl Sittler, and Mats Sundin! I'm surprised they haven't retired #11!

:roll:

- The Darkest Canuck - 02-08-2005

well...y'know...he did rack up 407 of his career 466 points as a Leaf...he's one of their best all-time point getters...in the top 25...

- j-monster - 02-08-2005

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:those guys are all superstars, actually, they're legends now, and they all played for the Leafs in the 80's...

btw, i forgot to mention Vaive, Leeman, and Turnbull.

Oh come on, NOW you're getting ridiculous (if you weren't already before). Gary Leeman? GARY FREAKIN' LEEMAN??? He had one season where he scored 50 goals... and it probably wasn't him, probably some alien inhabiting his body that season that turned him into a reasonably good player!

Quit hoggin' all the good drugs and share some with the rest of the class! :lol:

- The Darkest Canuck - 02-08-2005

407 points as a leaf.

- cferneyh - 02-08-2005

j-monster Wrote:
The Darkest Canuck Wrote:those guys are all superstars, actually, they're legends now, and they all played for the Leafs in the 80's...

btw, i forgot to mention Vaive, Leeman, and Turnbull.

Oh come on, NOW you're getting ridiculous (if you weren't already before). Gary Leeman? GARY FREAKIN' LEEMAN??? He had one season where he scored 50 goals... and it probably wasn't him, probably some alien inhabiting his body that season that turned him into a reasonably good player!

Quit hoggin' all the good drugs and share some with the rest of the class! :lol:

Yeah, you've gotta love how this has gone. He argues that people go to see star players. So I give him a ton of attendance figures in a bunch of different markets to show him that that is simply not true. So his argument comes down to the Leafs always selling out in the 80s because fans were coming to watch GARY LEEMAN. Hilarious! :lol:

- The Darkest Canuck - 02-08-2005

i didn't say that the Leafs were selling out because of Gary Leeman, you're trying to puts words in my mouth, if my memory serves me correctly here, hm, now uh, to the best of my recollection i remember...you said the Leafs didn't have any star power in the 80's, then i came up with some good examples, and you don't know what else to do now to try and cap this off, but try to puts words in my mouth Sad...for shame...

- cferneyh - 02-08-2005

The Darkest Canuck Wrote:i didn't say that the Leafs were selling out because of Gary Leeman, you're trying to puts words in my mouth, if my memory serves me correctly here, hm, now uh, to the best of my recollection i remember...you said the Leafs didn't have any star power in the 80's, then i came up with some good examples, and you don't know what else to do now to try and cap this off, but try to puts words in my mouth Sad...for shame...

Some good examples? Your best examples were players that weren't around with the Leafs for the most of 80s, and GARY LEEMAN. Yeah, good examples.

Keep grasping at straws. And learn the difference between facts and speculation.