Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - Printable Version
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Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - VioletlightHeron - 03-05-2009
grimes Wrote:mojo_mattv Wrote:Why? It's not like they're going to say "ah well not your fault, go you're free now boy!" and let him loose. He'll be locked up in a mental health hospital probably for the rest of his life.Don't be so sure. He gets an annual hearing with a review board who can set him free if they decide he's no longer a threat to the public...
Exactly, I'm sure the guy will get out in 10-15 years after going through pyschiatric treatment and pleading remorse, but that won't be justice for this family. I'm all for encarcerating this fellow in a mental health unit till the voices in his fucked up head go away and then sending him to a maximum security prison for the rest of his life.
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - tigerthelion - 03-05-2009
mojo_mattv Wrote:Why? It's not like they're going to say "ah well not your fault, go you're free now boy!" and let him loose. He'll be locked up in a mental health hospital probably for the rest of his life.
Who pays for his care in the mental hospital? I'm sorry, but he deserves to have his life taken from him. That's just the bottom line. What if he escapes from the hospital? Stranger things have happened. Heck, THOUSANDS OF INMATES WERE LET FREE from California prisons not too long ago because of overcrowding. How do you know the guy will never be on the streets again? If this motherf*cker killed another man, would you still feel like not executing him was a good idea?
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - emperor penguin - 03-05-2009
VioletlightHeron Wrote:grimes Wrote:mojo_mattv Wrote:Why? It's not like they're going to say "ah well not your fault, go you're free now boy!" and let him loose. He'll be locked up in a mental health hospital probably for the rest of his life.Don't be so sure. He gets an annual hearing with a review board who can set him free if they decide he's no longer a threat to the public...
Exactly, I'm sure the guy will get out in 10-15 years after going through pyschiatric treatment and pleading remorse, but that won't be justice for this family. I'm all for encarcerating this fellow in a mental health unit till the voices in his fucked up head go away and then sending him to a maximum security prison for the rest of his life.
Welcome to the Canadian legal system. This is the country where we let the terrorists responsible for the Air India attack walk away scott free. That tells you all you need to know about the legal system here, or the fact that we harbour American criminals who are on the run from the death penalty, etc...
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - mojo_mattv - 03-05-2009
tigerthelion Wrote:mojo_mattv Wrote:Why? It's not like they're going to say "ah well not your fault, go you're free now boy!" and let him loose. He'll be locked up in a mental health hospital probably for the rest of his life.
Who pays for his care in the mental hospital? I'm sorry, but he deserves to have his life taken from him. That's just the bottom line. What if he escapes from the hospital? Stranger things have happened. Heck, THOUSANDS OF INMATES WERE LET FREE from California prisons not too long ago because of overcrowding. How do you know the guy will never be on the streets again? If this motherf*cker killed another man, would you still feel like not executing him was a good idea?
Yes. This isn't the old testament. The pay argument is such a weak one, by that logic anybody that gets a smoking related disease shouldn't be treated by the healthcare system because they knew the whole time that they were at significant risk of contracting those diseases. The fact of the matter is that this man DID NOT know what he was doing. I don't know why it is that whenever somebody is deemed not criminally responsible everybody assumes that they some how duped a team of DOCTOR'S into thinking that they're insane. This man is insane, period.
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - VioletlightHeron - 03-05-2009
mojo_mattv Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:mojo_mattv Wrote:Why? It's not like they're going to say "ah well not your fault, go you're free now boy!" and let him loose. He'll be locked up in a mental health hospital probably for the rest of his life.
Who pays for his care in the mental hospital? I'm sorry, but he deserves to have his life taken from him. That's just the bottom line. What if he escapes from the hospital? Stranger things have happened. Heck, THOUSANDS OF INMATES WERE LET FREE from California prisons not too long ago because of overcrowding. How do you know the guy will never be on the streets again? If this motherf*cker killed another man, would you still feel like not executing him was a good idea?
Yes. This isn't the old testament. The pay argument is such a weak one, by that logic anybody that gets a smoking related disease shouldn't be treated by the healthcare system because they knew the whole time that they were at significant risk of contracting those diseases. The fact of the matter is that this man DID NOT know what he was doing. I don't know why it is that whenever somebody is deemed not criminally responsible everybody assumes that they some how duped a team of DOCTOR'S into thinking that they're insane. This man is insane, period.
The most troubling aspect of the first part of your arguement is the total irrelevance of it to the matter of criminal justice. How does Healthcare even figure into this? The question is not whether Li duped a team of doctors into believing he is medically insane; it is the criminal justice system's lack of punishment aspect after Li has been treated and deemed psychologically normal. He will most likely be released and sent to a group home after 10-15 years of treatment and he will most likely be under court order to continue taking meds. All of this is fine and dandy, but what about the family that never gets their son back? Where is the justice of releasing a convicted murderer into a setting that is less than a provincial prison? He'll have all his needs taken care of by the taxpayers and I'm sure they let him out for outings and visits by his family. Will Li feel remorse for his actions? I kind of doubt it.
Edit: My basic point is you seem more concerned that Li get treatment for his mental illness and not on the basic fairness of punishing the killer for his deeds and providing justice to the family while still treating Li for his mental illness.
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - skippy the wonder dog - 03-06-2009
It's a justice system, not a revenge system. It's not our job as a nation to make the family feel better.
The guy is insane. So you lock him up in a mental institution. That's what we do with people who are insane. Do you folks really think this guy is somehow going to be able to dupe a review board into letting him go free? If yes, do you have any actual experience with schizophrenics? You think you can force people to feel remorse?
What makes you think that punishing someone will bring back the dead?
:nooooo
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - mojo_mattv - 03-06-2009
As Skippy said, it's not the job of the government to provide revenge. I agree that this guy probably doesn't feel much remorse, it's damn near impossible when you're mentally unstable and literally don't think you've done anything wrong. What's sending him to a prison going to do? Cause him to feel remorseful? Probably not. If anything it will just cause a risk to the safety of the prison population (both inmates and employees). It has to be looked at from the point of view that if your friend/family member was a schizophrenic, had a major psychotic episode and hurt somebody would you want them to get the help they need? Probably. I'm not condoning what he did, I just think it's shortsighted of people to immediately assume that he needs to be executed or that he somehow duped the system so he wouldn't get sent to a prison.
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - The Horrible Esthete - 03-06-2009
skippy the wonder dog Wrote:It's a justice system, not a revenge system. It's not our job as a nation to make the family feel better.
Valid point, but the problem I see is that there's no justice being served, either. If the guy is clinically insane, then you're right -- we can forget about him ever feeling "remorse". But while you're at it, you can forget about this guy ever coming to the realization what he did was "wrong", and forget about him ever being certifiably "rehabilitated" too, as those things won't happen either.
He'll "receive treatment" in an institution for years and years (at taxpayer expense), and be medicated to a near vegetative state....until he eventually will be deemed "no longer a viable threat to society", and then he'll one day be released back into society. However, he'll need an array special "services" and "assistance programs" for the rest of his life, also on the taxpayer's dime.
So after all is said and done, there'll be no justice served, and no closure whatsoever for the victim's family, either. Dude will never lead a productive life, never be "healthy", and never support himself. He will forever be the burden of the state, and to make matters worse, the victim's family will be forced to share the cost (along with every other citizen) of providing for the lifelong care and treatment of the guy who killed their loved one.
That just strikes me as the worst of ANY conceivable result of this tragic situation.
There simply is no realistic 'satisfactory outcome' for anyone. I know it sounds completely barbaric -- but to me, the most sensible resolution (and humane, really) is this: "euthanization for the criminally insane".
*GASP!*
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - emperor penguin - 03-06-2009
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:There simply is no realistic 'satisfactory outcome' for anyone. I know it sounds completely barbaric -- but to me, the most sensible resolution (and humane, really) is this: "euthanization for the criminally insane".
*GASP!*
I could not agree more. As you said, there is absolutely no purpose in keeping him alive.
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - skippy the wonder dog - 03-06-2009
If life is cheap, why outlaw murder?
I'm curious: exactly how much do you think this guy will cost each and every Canadian taxpayer over his lifetime?
I'd say maybe a buck or two.
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - second_sight_kyle - 03-07-2009
VioletlightHeron Wrote:All of this is fine and dandy, but what about the family that never gets their son back? Where is the justice of releasing a convicted murderer into a setting that is less than a provincial prison? He'll have all his needs taken care of by the taxpayers and I'm sure they let him out for outings and visits by his family. Will Li feel remorse for his actions? I kind of doubt it.
Edit: My basic point is you seem more concerned that Li get treatment for his mental illness and not on the basic fairness of punishing the killer for his deeds and providing justice to the family while still treating Li for his mental illness.
Did you mean where is the justice in the eventual release of a murderer? If the family considers Li's banishment to a mental institution for a lengthy period time (in addition to living the rest of his natural life under the microscopic eyes of mental health professionals, law enforcement, and anyone who has ever seen his face) as unjust, then maybe it is time for them to re-think their definition of justice. I kind of caught the drift that you may think justice is served by some form of punishment...that punishment is justice. If that is the case, then I really do think that justice was served. Li's life, if he can make sense of it, is probably going to be hell on earth.
Li was punished fairly in that his mental health problems were revealed, and the ruling took that into consideration. From this persepective, the only thing left to be concerned about is how and when he will get treatment. If the McLean family can't see the fairness and justice in the ruling, then of course they will never be concerned with Li's treatment. It is legitimate that they worry about Li's eventual release, and this is why the family and everyone else should be concerned mostly with Li getting proper and timely treatment. If the family's ultimate goal is to prevent someone else from losing a loved one, it would be in their best interest to realize the ruling for what it was (fair and just) and to make sure Li gets the treatment he needs.
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - tigerthelion - 03-07-2009
mojo_mattv Wrote:tigerthelion Wrote:mojo_mattv Wrote:Why? It's not like they're going to say "ah well not your fault, go you're free now boy!" and let him loose. He'll be locked up in a mental health hospital probably for the rest of his life.
Who pays for his care in the mental hospital? I'm sorry, but he deserves to have his life taken from him. That's just the bottom line. What if he escapes from the hospital? Stranger things have happened. Heck, THOUSANDS OF INMATES WERE LET FREE from California prisons not too long ago because of overcrowding. How do you know the guy will never be on the streets again? If this motherf*cker killed another man, would you still feel like not executing him was a good idea?
Yes. This isn't the old testament. The pay argument is such a weak one, by that logic anybody that gets a smoking related disease shouldn't be treated by the healthcare system because they knew the whole time that they were at significant risk of contracting those diseases. The fact of the matter is that this man DID NOT know what he was doing. I don't know why it is that whenever somebody is deemed not criminally responsible everybody assumes that they some how duped a team of DOCTOR'S into thinking that they're insane. This man is insane, period.
Listen, EVERY PERSON WHO COMMITS MURDER IS INSANE. Do you not get that? No sane person is gonna kill another human being.
Actually, I don't think that people who smoke should actually receive free health care.
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - tigerthelion - 03-07-2009
emperor penguin Wrote:The Horrible Esthete Wrote:There simply is no realistic 'satisfactory outcome' for anyone. I know it sounds completely barbaric -- but to me, the most sensible resolution (and humane, really) is this: "euthanization for the criminally insane".
*GASP!*
I could not agree more. As you said, there is absolutely no purpose in keeping him alive.
BINGO!
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - tigerthelion - 03-07-2009
skippy the wonder dog Wrote:If life is cheap, why outlaw murder?That's a buck too much for me.
I'm curious: exactly how much do you think this guy will cost each and every Canadian taxpayer over his lifetime?
I'd say maybe a buck or two.
Re: Man Beheaded on Bus - Portage La Prairie, Manitoba - skippy the wonder dog - 03-08-2009
tigerthelion Wrote:Listen, EVERY PERSON WHO COMMITS MURDER IS INSANE. Do you not get that? No sane person is gonna kill another human being.
Wrong.
You're arguing to kill another human being right now. Your desire to see this man killed, apparently, is based on the desire to save yourself a dollar. Coffee's expensive these days, but life is cheap.
So I have to ask you, are you insane? And if we kill this guy, do we get an insane person to do the deed?
(Perhaps we can get Const. Millington of the RCMP to take on the job. He's obviously insane by your yardstick, having killed a human being, and his police future ain't looking too bright this week. He'd be suited to used car sales, which would use one of his talents, or as an executioner, which would use the other. But I digress.)
People kill people all the time, without being insane.