BUSH BURSTS HUBBLE BUBBLE - Printable Version
+- PunBB (https://punbb.in)
+-- Forum: General Discussion - Hipbase.com (https://punbb.in/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Non Tragically Hip Discussion (https://punbb.in/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: BUSH BURSTS HUBBLE BUBBLE (/showthread.php?tid=1565)
+- PunBB (https://punbb.in)
+-- Forum: General Discussion - Hipbase.com (https://punbb.in/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Non Tragically Hip Discussion (https://punbb.in/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: BUSH BURSTS HUBBLE BUBBLE (/showthread.php?tid=1565)
- CanuckCourage - 01-22-2004
Speaking of colonializing , the discovery of our two countries (US Canada) is always trumpeted as the great discoveries. People forget of the brutality of the colonizing North America was victim to , the wiping out the vast majority of natives , slaughtered , gave them Smallpox infested blankets intentionally . That N. America wasn't some great discovery , it was just brutal colonizing . Ask Native Americans opinions on it, their view of the great discovery of North America will be vastly different .
- grooveless touque - 01-22-2004
BY THE WAY...did anybody else watch Bush's State of the Union speech? The most shocking - but sure as hell not surprising - fact was this:
Last year's speech talked about thousands of tons of biological weapons, stockpiles of WMDs, massive chemical weapons facilities capable of producing tens of thousands of gallons of chemicals and so on in Iraq. This was the threat to the US, or so Bush would have you believe.
This year's speech talked about "dozens" - not thousands - of "weapon-related program associations". Sounds like a pretty big change of tone to me.
Thanks to Jon Stewart's Daily Show for pointing this out with greater clarity than I could have.
- Kim - 01-22-2004
This is the European version of the State of the Union speech ( a little editting can go a long way....)
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/presaddress2.shtml
:lol:
- CanuckCourage - 01-22-2004
Hahaahaha , that's hilarious ! :lol:
- AmbitionlessHipster - 01-22-2004
VioletlightHeron Wrote:I don't think you want to understand the point I am making, that no matter what race, creed,color exists, no race of people on this earth is innocent of practicing racial discrimination in its history. There are tribes in Africa; in Nigeria, Uganda and Congo that hate and destroy each other out of smug superiority of their race/tribe, but barely a word is breathed in the major newspapers of the underlying reasons why these countries are shambles. It is inpolitic to suggest that Asian and Black races share the same sad flaw of the skinheads and Aryan believers in the white race. What was the massacre in Rwanda about? It was about the hatred of the Hutu people by the Tsuti (sp?) tribe and their decision to slaughter them for some ancient wrong done or belief that the Hutu's were less than human and therefore slaughter could be justified. I think its a great thing to teach our schoolkids about the failings of the past, about slavery and Jim Crow. But, at some point, life has to go on. We have laws in this country and in canada that outlaw discrimination and the agencies to enforce those laws. The scenario that scares me the most in this country is based on the boy who cried wolf all the time. The NAACP and other organizations have done a wonderful job of pointing out the deficiencies of some governments and corporations, but it is very rare to hear something from them that is not a complaint. The NAACP is a political organization just like the rest of the right to life, pro gun, pro abortion groups out there that have their own agenda. To cry racism and discrimination because they did not get their way in politics is foolhardy and dangerous. Dangerous because the louder they scream about racism in this country without verifiable facts to back it up, the more people start to ignore them. The more people ignore them, the less power and believability they will have when it comes to pointing out real instances of racism in American society. In my ideal world, people would sit down and negotiate their differences with respect;all parties recognizing that sometimes they dont always get what they want and the best way to get what they want is to think smarter and present better arguements and convince more people their ideals are right rather than whining and carping about the raw deal they got.
I agree and disagree with you on this arguement. I feel the problem with NASA is it is a big government agency. Huge federal agencies are, in my opinion, prone to errors in judgement and slothfulness because their is a lack of accountability and common sense because of the size and amount of money spent. I dont think Corporations are good or evil, its the people who run them, especially in the big corporations that depend of government contracts to continue in business and get lazy or mismanaged and are concerned with profit motive rather than cost effectiveness and accountability. There are corporations out there, and people within some of the big corporations that follow their sense of right and wrong and use fair business practices. These companies invent faster, more effective rockets, fuel cells etc that make space exploration more conceivable and everyday living better for all of us. Hyundai Prius or that other electric car? Like anything in this world, I feel there are lots of good things and bad things and I feel that the best way to live life is to celebrate the progress and achievements we make toward a better human race and accept failure and work to correct it, knowing that it may take more time than i would want. Recrimination and bitterness leaves you in a trap of your own making. There's an old saying ive heard, cant remember off the top of my head who said it but it goes like this..Forgive the sins of the past of your fellow man, but never forget the choices and errors that lead to these sins.
ok, i've babbled enough here, thanks for graciously allowing me to speak my peace..over to you, leslee:thumb:
I think I clearly understand the point that “you are making.” If you recall I said:
<<Now, this is certainly not to deny that human nature is based upon competition and whatnot. I obviously understand that humanity is greedy and flawed. When, however, you mention things such as “colonising” the moon, it reminds me of all of the disgusting things done to people.>>
BUT, in terms of you mentioning the (perhaps future) colonisation of the moon, I am simply reminding you of all of the terrible occurrences that went on in the world during the colonisation of Africa, South and North America. I am not turning this into a debate on race; however, you cannot deny the white, European discrimination that has tainted the last 300 years. Yes, many African tribes kill one another as the continent is in a constant state of disarray. (Not to mention the amount of support that *certain* nations receive from the US in terms of money, weapons and 'special forces training.' Indonesia is being helped by the US in the form of training and weapons, to destroy East Timor and where do you think Israel gets around 6 bill$ to ravage the Palestinians? And let us not forget poor South America. Remember, a lot of this 'colonisation' still occurs today with the US imposing puppet governments around the world in order to get what they want...and if this is not an overt form of "white" intervention, I do not know what is) I agree with Kim and would even argue that Imperialism and the intervention of colonisers has led to much of that disarray… especially with the attempts to instil white, democratic governments that clearly do not work in lands of Africa. You argument also falls a little flat because I think you are taking “colonialism” out of context. Colonialism is “a policy by which a nation maintains or extends its control over foreign dependencies.” So, regardless if people kill each other in their own lands (And just because others do it to each other does NOT serve as any sort of justification for us to be colonisers!), I am pointing out the fact that colonising the moon would easily parallel the white nations’ tendency toward “conquering and destroying” other nations for their own benefit.
<<Life has to go on>>
How can life simply “go on” when all of the faults of the past affect and influence many of the problems of the present?! How can one ignore cause and effect? How will society ever become better if we allow “life to go on” without dealing with past mistakes and the troubles they have left us with today?
<< Recrimination and bitterness leaves you in a trap of your own making.>>
Similar to what I mentioned above: What is in the present has stemmed from the past. We made it, so I do not think that ignoring it or moving on is a solution. It will leave many embittered and it will be pushing reality aside. It is the perfect capitalistic statement: Invent and purchase and everything will be forgotten; continue to make electric cars and better rockets to send us to the moon… but does this really solve the problems? What is “progress,” really? It is relative to whether or not you depend upon a capitalistic and materialistic society.
<<To cry racism and discrimination because they did not get their way in politics is foolhardy and dangerous. Dangerous because the louder they scream about racism in this country without verifiable facts to back it up, the more people start to ignore them>>
This statement is a little rowdy. I suppose that, if you think that it is wrong for ethnic minorities to fight for their right to equality in terms of government and the corporate ladder, and then it is also “silly” for women to cry discrimination when we are rejected time and time again because of male patriarchical traditions (biases)? I do not even want to understand your theory about “crying wolf.” It strikes me as ridiculous! People need to stand up for equal representation. Just look at the majority of CEO’s and upper management positions: male, white. So, should we simply accept that neither blacks nor women can ever break this mould? If not, is it a suggestion that minorities and women are not educated? Are not capable? If not, then what is the problem and what is wrong with standing up for rights? I am not suggesting that NAACP is an ideal organisation however, it is necessary to have groups that point out problems and deficiencies.
You know, any instance of discrimination is wrong, so I do not understand how you can accuse people of “crying racism.” As soon as one is being judged on matters of race/ethnicity and gender it is an act of discrimination.
<<. There are corporations out there, and people within some of the big corporations that follow their sense of right and wrong and use fair business practices. These companies invent faster, more effective rockets, fuel cells etc that make space exploration more conceivable and everyday living better for all of us.>>
Yes, and they also invent weapons and bombs. The product that they create does not determine whether or not they employ fair business practices. Can you please enlighten me as to how space exploration is making “everyday life better for all of us” because I can find many more important ventures that could be invested in that would ameliorate our current social situation. It is easy for middle and upper classes to support these useless ventures (and if not useless, they are no as important as feeding the hungry and educating the children).
<< Forgive the sins of the past of your fellow man, but never forget the choices and errors that lead to these sins. >>
I believe this better suits my argument. Instead of “not forgetting the errors,” how about doing something about them, first by recognising that they are a cause of many of the social situations that damage society today.
Leslee
- grooveless touque - 01-22-2004
Kim, that is F**KIN' HILARIOUS!!! Amazing!!!
"Trusting in the sanity and restraint of the United States is not safe, and it is not an option!" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
- sherpahigh - 01-22-2004
AmbitionlessHipster Wrote:Can you please enlighten me as to how space exploration is making “everyday life better for all of us” because I can find many more important ventures that could be invested in that would ameliorate our current social situation. It is easy for middle and upper classes to support these useless ventures (and if not useless, they are no as important as feeding the hungry and educating the children).
Leslee
Here's a few examples of how the space program has helped make the lives of many better:
Image processing used in CAT Scanners and MRI technology in hospitals worldwide came from technology developed to computer-enhanced pictures of the Moon for the Apollo programs.
Kidney dialysis machines were developed as a result of a NASA-developed chemical process, and insulin pumps were based on technology used on the Mars Viking spacecraft.
Programmable Heart Pacemakers were first developed in the 1970s using NASA satellite electrical systems.
Fetal heart monitors were developed from technology originally used to measure airflow over aircraft wings.
Surgical probes used to treat brain tumors in children resulted from special lighting technology developed for plant growth experiments on Space Shuttle missions.
Infrared hand-held cameras used to observe blazing plumes from the Shuttle have helped firefighters point out hot spots in brush fires.
Satellite communications allow news organizations to provide live, on-the-spot broadcasting from anywhere in the world; families and businesses to stay in touch using cellphone networks; and the simple pleasures of satellite TV and radio, and the convenience of ATMs across the country and around the world.
Of course the list is directly from the white house website so maybe it's not a credible source in the eyes of some. They are still facts and maybe some of these things would have come about without the space program. They definitly would not have come as fast without it however. I have seen a similar list on a science site not related to NASA or the government, I don't recall where at the moment though.
The fact is that we live in a democracy and as such, the actions of the government can not represent the will of every individual in every case. For myself, I'll take living in a democracy and being allowed the freedom to disagree with the actions of my government and having the choice to use my vote and voice my opinion. I don't believe that any one system is without flaws and I really don't believe that there can ever be a system in place without flaws. Everybody's got a different take on different issues, so we'll obviously never be able to all agree on all of them.
This doesn't mean that I don't think we should strive for perfection and a balanced society. Any step towards a better society is a good step. Part of the advances in society have been a result of the space program. No denying it. Of course there is no gaurantee that this will be the case again with this latest push to mars, but it's hard to know without looking. I'm all for exploration of every kind weather it be individuals exploring whats over the next hill, divers searching the depths of the oceans or people going into space. Anything that brings us more knowladge about ourselves as humans, our environment and why the earth is the way it is a step in the right direction.
Hopefuly that made a little bit of sense.
- grooveless touque - 01-22-2004
OK, to get back to the original point of this topic (not that I mind political discussions, I'm thrilled with this), NASA just acknowledged they have lost contact with the Spirit Rover after 18 days. Apparently the data has stopped flowing, and the only sign of "life" is an emergency beacon designed to let NASA know when the Rover is screwed.
After all those missions to Mars failed, Nasa shiit themselves with this one finally working. And now it stops!! I cannot seriously believe Bush wants to send HUMANS to Mars when we can't even get a little metal vehicle to work. If you're going to kill yourself you might as well do it here on Earth so your family can bury you. $400 million down the toilet if they can't re-establish a data link. How many robot corpses do they need before they take the hint that hey, maybe it's not such a good idea to be spending tens of billions of dollars on it!
In the earlier part of the 20th century, Sir Ernest Shackleton took men to Antarctica, trying to be the first to cross the entire continent by foot, and he actually put an ad in the paper to recruit people that said "Safe return doubtful". That was even the title of his biography. So I guess there are probably enough idiots out there to fill a NASA mission (of course, they aren't willing to admit the first men on Mars are going to be the first to DIE there)...but it's stil a bad idea.
- sherpahigh - 01-22-2004
here's a good link on the demise of the Hubble:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/12/1230_031230_hubbletelescope.html">http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... scope.html</a><!-- m -->
- Kim - 01-23-2004
Canuck Courage Wrote:Hahaahaha , that's hilarious !
grooveless touque Wrote:Kim, that is F**KIN' HILARIOUS!!! Amazing!!!
"Trusting in the sanity and restraint of the United States is not safe, and it is not an option!" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Glad you boys liked it :mrgreen: :thumb:
- AmbitionlessHipster - 01-23-2004
[quote="sherpahigh"]
<<Here's a few examples of how the space program has helped make the lives of many better: >>
Why yes... but does that not mean that all of these things were discovered as a sort of 'by-product' or mistake/by chance? If so, then imagine if all of the money from the space program was being directed towards research for humanity and not the space program... I bet a lot more things could have been discovered.
Just a thought.
Thank you for the info! :thumb:
<< The fact is that we live in a democracy and as such, the actions of the government can not represent the will of every individual in every case. >>
Especially when governments are puppets and speak for the elite few and corporate interests. I also find it troubling that only half of the country votes.
<<For myself, I'll take living in a democracy and being allowed the freedom to disagree with the actions of my government and having the choice to use my vote and voice my opinion.>>
Liberty, yes... freedom no.
It was pretty frightening during this vote for Ontario provincial elections. There is little choice, it is obvious that parties do not live up to their campaign promises and not to mention I did not vote for who I supported because I knew the vote would not count in the majority system. It was an election of two parties in which many dejected people had to vote for the "lesser evil" party.
Do you still feel like you are left with a good deal?
<< I don't believe that any one system is without flaws and I really don't believe that there can ever be a system in place without flaws.
This doesn't mean that I don't think we should strive for perfection and a balanced society. Any step towards a better society is a good step. >>>
This is correct. Basically, I just believe that we can strive for a better society (and ultimately a better human being) and that includes using money for better suited purposes. Children starve in our first world countries and in our neighbourhoods; women cannot leave abusive husbands because there is not enough social help for them to survive; education is the key to a better life and see how many children drop out of school let alone the ill-equipped schools due to lack of funding... these (and many many more) are all detriments to the present human condition, and quite fankly... this is sad. So, that is the sort of thing that I think of when weighing out the advantages and disadvantages of ventures such as the space program.
Leslee
- LastStop - 01-26-2004
As an American, I am more than happy to spend a mere 1% of our budget on space exploration. I really WANT to learn if there was ever life on Mars, because I think that would be a startling discovery. Hell, I'm thrilled that we've even found solid evidence of water. That's a very encouraging sign. I feel fortunate to live in a time when we as a species are technologically advanced enough to be able to actually go see for ourselves. It's incredible to be able to look at a hi-res full color picture of the Martian landscape, that's as clear as if you were standing there yourself:
http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_spirit_first-color_02.jpg&cap=This%20is%20the%20first%20color%20image%20of%20Mars%20taken%20by%20the%20panoramic%20camera%20on%20the%20Mars%20Exploration%20Rover%20Spirit.%20It%20is%20the%20highest%20resolution%20image%20ever%20taken%20on%20the%20surface%20of%20another%20planet.%20Image%20credit:%20NASA/JPL/Cornell%20University
To be honest, I'm dumbfounded by people who do not feel even a twinge of excitement about all of this. I just can't fathom such intellectual apathy.
Lots of people in America do not think we should spend a dime on space exploration, and while I disagree with them vehemently, I respect their opinion because it's their money. But when people in other countries complain about it, I just have to laugh. It just seems ungrateful to me. Afterall, we're the ones spending the money, but the whole world gains the knowledge. You guys get to see breathtaking pictures of Mars, and hopefully soon learn if life ever existed there, and we foot the bill. It doesn't cost you a nickel. This knowledge comes with a tremendous financial (and human) cost, and we're paying it. So quit your bitching and just thank us for a change.
- dyersbay - 01-26-2004
LastStop Wrote:It doesn't cost you a nickel. This knowledge comes with a tremendous financial (and human) cost, and we're paying it. So quit your bitching and just thank us for a change.
Spend your money where you want...just don't come asking us for money to help rebuild Iraq because it's to much of a financial cost for just the US to handle. Also please don't bitch at us, because we don't want to contribute our tax dollars to help a cause that we didn't even want to participate in. You need to take care of your problems at home first, before spending billions on something that is not necessary.
- LastStop - 01-26-2004
Quote:Spend your money where you want...just don't come asking us for money to help rebuild Iraq because it's to much of a financial cost for just the US to handle.
Uhh, that has absolutely nothing to do with NASA.
Quote:Also please don't bitch at us, because we don't want to contribute our tax dollars to help a cause that we didn't even want to participate in.
I wasn't bitching at you about Iraq. In fact I didn't even mention it, since it has absolutely nothing to do with NASA.
Quote:You need to take care of your problems at home first, before spending billions on something that is not necessary.
Yeah, thanks for the unsolicited advice. However, since it's my money we're talking about and not yours, forgive me if I don't give your opinion on the matter all that much weight. Space exploration may not yet be "necessary", but it is definitely valuable in my opinion.
In the meantime, enjoy the pictures and knowledge, free of charge!
- sherpahigh - 01-26-2004
AmbitionlessHipster Wrote:Why yes... but does that not mean that all of these things were discovered as a sort of 'by-product' or mistake/by chance? If so, then imagine if all of the money from the space program was being directed towards research for humanity and not the space program... I bet a lot more things could have been discovered.
Just a thought.
Thank you for the info! :thumb:
They were discovered as a result of focusing the money on a specific goal. Without the goal of reaching the moon, they might have never needed to develop a better way to measure airflow over an aircraft wing. And since they didn't need that, the technology for Fetal Heart monitors would not have been developed.
At any rate, I believe that spending money on the space program is spending money on research for humanity. Also, I believe that more good will come from spending money on a specific goal than just say spending it on the very broad goal of "research for humanity". Also, as LastStop pointed out, it's not like they're allocating their entire budget to this goal. I believe that a lot of useful information will come from such a venture. Great discoveries have come from the space program before and I believe more will come from this latest push.
Oh, and you're welcome for the info.
AmbitionlessHipster Wrote:Especially when governments are puppets and speak for the elite few and corporate interests. I also find it troubling that only half of the country votes.
It is troubling that only half the country votes. That said, if they can't be bothered to vote, certainly they're not bothered to research candidates and make an educated vote. I'd rather they not vote at all if all they're going to do is vote based on who's haircut they like better or whatever else their decision would be based on.
AmbitionlessHipster Wrote:Liberty, yes... freedom no.
It was pretty frightening during this vote for Ontario provincial elections. There is little choice, it is obvious that parties do not live up to their campaign promises and not to mention I did not vote for who I supported because I knew the vote would not count in the majority system. It was an election of two parties in which many dejected people had to vote for the "lesser evil" party.
Do you still feel like you are left with a good deal?
Freedom, yes. The fact that we are online debating over our government is a freedom on its own. We are free to come and go. We are free to use our vote and as disgusted as you are with your example of the Ontario provincial election, that's precisly what you did. You used your vote to vote for a party that you do not support. I do understand the logic in which you based your vote but I'm torn on the long term effectiveness of such a stratagy. You do ensure that your vote is not "wasted" but at the same time the party that you really want is not shown your support. I don't know if that will bode well for the future of the party if nobody supports them in the election.
Like I said before, every system has flaws. One major flaw in my opinion with the Canadian system is that there is not a limit on how long one can be the Prime Minister of the country as well as the fact that the Prime Minister can call the election whenever he/she thinks it is the most advantagous for re-election. The American system with a vote every 4 years and a max of 2 terms is much more democratic than our system.
AmbitionlessHipster Wrote:This is correct. Basically, I just believe that we can strive for a better society (and ultimately a better human being) and that includes using money for better suited purposes. Children starve in our first world countries and in our neighbourhoods; women cannot leave abusive husbands because there is not enough social help for them to survive; education is the key to a better life and see how many children drop out of school let alone the ill-equipped schools due to lack of funding... these (and many many more) are all detriments to the present human condition, and quite fankly... this is sad. So, that is the sort of thing that I think of when weighing out the advantages and disadvantages of ventures such as the space program.
Leslee
You know, I agree that all of that is sad and not to be ignored. I don't believe that it is a choice between the two however. No one is suggesting that the problems you mention be ignored. The fact is, is that there are always going to be social problems in any society. I don't believe that a utopia can ever exist given human nature. Working to solve these problems is going to be an ongoing venture and stopping everything else until they're all solved would be foolhardy and misguided.
Anyway, that's all just my own view on things.