PunBB

To all Cogeco cable TV stations... and every local public access channel anywhere on the planet:

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD INVEST IN A TELEPROMPTER! Raise my taxes, hold more pledge drives, knock over a 7-11, whatever.

I wrote 10, 30-second spots, about 100 words in each, nothing big. But I'm transfering the text of those spots to cue cards, and it: S. U. C. K. S. Sucks.

I think my frustration is compounded with Harper's Quebec announcement. He wants Europe; divided, polarized. We want Canada; united, strong.

A reply to my conservative cousin who owns a small business and has swallowed the Neo-Con cool aid. I figured I'd toss it up here because I'm bored, and because nobody's reading this thread anymore anyway:

The points you make (although I disagree with everyone of them as you’ll see below) are legitimate political points, they are also on the table as a result of the fact that the Liberals have made it possible for us to have an election campaign based on how to spend surpluses and improve a public medicare system. We are indeed a nation blessed.

Beyond policy, I have to tell you that the reason I am so galvanized against Harper and his Western protest party is the fact that so many of them and their supporters are intolerant and ignorant to the core. This is a party that would deny tax paying citizens equal rights, force religion into the schools, curb immigration despite its incredible benefits and necessity, and would have plunged us into an unjust war just because Uncle Sam said so. Their economic policies are straight out of the 1980’s Reaganomics doomsdays, and their social policies go against the very idea of Canada, favouring upper class WASP’s and putting everything in terms of “Us” vs. “Them.” The reason I’m working 12-hour days, 7 days a week right now, is because I never, ever, want this type of Republican, regressive government to represent me… and judging by the polls, neither do most Canadians. When the Tory’s become progressive again, then we’ll talk. The number of times I’ve heard shit like “You shouldn’t have let Faggots marry” or “too many Paki’s are stealing our jobs” (which in addition to be racist is simply untrue) has made me personally driven to ensure these clowns get sent back to the ranch once and for all. I know not all conservatives feel this way, and I’m certainly not lumping you in with the whack jobs, but I’m embarrassed to have those people in my country, and I certainly don’t want their chosen party running it.

And now your points:

- The Conservative platform is clear, I'm still trying to figure out the Liberals.

Strategy. We have a record to run on, they don’t. Our policy announcements (many of which are continuations of things already working; child care etc.) will come on consecutive days in January to ensure we control the agenda heading into election day.

- Cut the GST

Great. Here’s $2 for every $100 you spend. Our plan drops a million Canadians off the income tax rolls altogether, they save thousands every year, billions go back into the economy. Those people then come in to your store to buy things, whereas the GST cut only helps you if you can afford to come into your store in the first place. It benefits the middle and upper class at the expense of the poor. Paul Martin has had some success with finances, the last Tory government bankrupted us. In 1993, the World Bank was about to be called in to finance our debt. By 1997, we’d tackled the problem. Thanks Jean. Thanks Paul.

-Introduce Responsible Government (what the?? crazy idea??)

Canadian conservative’s have the worst record of graft and patronage in the history of the democratic world. Remember Brian Mulroney? See “On The Take” by Stevie Cameron or google “Pacific Scandal” for but two examples. The sponsorship program lost (and I dispute that, since the money went to keep the country together in a fight with seperatists who weren't playing by the rules either) the equivalent of $40 to somebody who earns $60,000 a year. Your taxes won’t be going up, and your programs won’t be cut because of sponsorship. Two guys are on trial, thanks to Paul Martin’s inquiry, and those two guys will go to jail.

-Tax Credits for kids in sports (encouraging preventative medicine instead of reactive)

Preventative medicine? The Trudeau government introduced the “Participaction” program (remember those ads?) in the 70’s, along with tax credits. Harper stole the idea last year and now claims it as his own. It didn’t work then, it won’t work now. Kids have to be socially engaged, and their parents have to be able to afford the cost of hockey etc. up front. A tax break won’t help them. Tories think tax breaks are the answer to everything.

-Give $$ to people to decide their own ways to spend on child care (but we may not have the sense and want to spend it on beer & popcorn )

Again, the Tories don’t have a child care plan, they have a tax plan. The Liberals will create spaces so that all children, no matter the income, can receive quality and standardized early learning and child care. The Tory plan puts $25 a week into the hand's of their parents. Child care costs $400 a month as of yesterday. Yep, you’re right, what Scott said was stupid, but the Tory tax-care plan is even stupider.

-Have an elected Senate (can you even argue that the Senate isn't a crock in it's current form?)

Abolish the thing. We did it provincially, we can do it federally. Use the seats for a Proportional parliament down the line.

-Improve the health care system by allowing access (Supreme Court said this was the way to go since Liberals haven't gotten ahead in their 12 years)

The Supreme Court didn’t say that. The Chaoulli case ruled that wait times violated the Charter. The four dissenting judges, and Chief Justice McLaughlin who ruled in favour, all said that privatization was not the answer. They cited the same examples: Sweden, Britain etc; that the Tories always cite. But they found in those cases that a parallel private system did not reduce wait times. Privatization does not increase supply. If a doctor has five patients now, under the Ralph Klein-Stephen Harper health care system, he’d have two in the public line and three in the paying line. Guess who gets served first? In all the cases the SCC looked at, it was the poor who got the shaft. It’s all up on the SCC website. This is just another policy that figures reducing spending and giving the responsibility to the private sector will make things more efficient, and it may. But the private sector is not interested in care, it’s interested in profit; the two should never meet in a civilized country. Government can and has played a positive role in the lives of Canadians.

Stephen, a seasoned political scientist such as yourself knows that the Senate cannot simply be abolished. The Senate is constitutionally entrenched. It would require a constitutional amendment (and you know how tricky those are) to abolish the Senate.

I think the Senate is an excellent idea (a sober second thought) that is in need of some serious reform. An elected, effective, and equal Senate is an excellent idea, IMO.

Stephen... I don't want to make too big a deal of your post, and I respect your opinions... but your third paragraph is one of the craziest things I've seen you write. The Conservatives are not a "western protest party" or filled with "whackjobs"... they have purged and left behind those radical elements of the Reform/Alliance, their policies are clear and strong (you can debate that, of course), and they are much more progressive than you give them credit for. And one thing that cannot be argued... they do not have the stain of corruption that the Liberals do.

Like I said, I don't want to make too big a deal of this, nor do I want to get into a pissing contest with you or anyone else... but I just had to get this off my chest.

Excuse me for jumping in, but I am just starting to pay attention to the political world.

At the risk of being too general, and interupting what looks like a good debate I would like to ask.....

Why shouldn't I vote for the NDP? Layton seems to not beat around the bush, and gets to the point, I share the some of the same views as this guy, and he seems to speak in plain English. I just would like to figure out why they are not as popular as the other two front running parties. What am I missing? (If anything)

Thanks for the help

Why would you assume that simply because the NDP is less popular, there must be something wrong with them?

Conservatives alike will tell you that it's because they're a bunch of whackjobs who think that the public purse is a bottomless money pit and will spend us into bankruptcy. This despite the fact that NDP governments have a better record of running balanced budgets than either the Liberals or the Conservatives, and the fact that the Conservatives have made more spending promises in this campaign than the NDP.

Liberals will tell you that a vote for the NDP will help put the Conservatives in power, so if you want a progressive government, you should vote Liberal. This despite the Liberals' bringing the public health system to the brink of disaster, and despite the closeness of the Liberals' policies to those of a man named Mike Harris.

If you agree with their policies, you should vote for them. It's time for Canadians to stop holding their noses and voting Liberal just to keep Harper and his Dalek minions at bay.

MountainHip Wrote:Excuse me for jumping in, but I am just starting to pay attention to the political world.

At the risk of being too general, and interupting what looks like a good debate I would like to ask.....

Why shouldn't I vote for the NDP? Layton seems to not beat around the bush, and gets to the point, I share the some of the same views as this guy, and he seems to speak in plain English. I just would like to figure out why they are not as popular as the other two front running parties. What am I missing? (If anything)

Thanks for the help

That's how it always is though right? The ones who know they can't win are usually the most eloquent and sensible sounding parties. Hell, Pat Buchanan always wowed everyone with his ideas and charisma because he had nothing to lose. He could shoot from the hip because he knew he wouldn't get elected. He didn't care what he said because he knew he wouldn't have to deliver his promises anyway. In Canada, all I hear is how Canadians would never have a communist type of government. Well, Jack Layton isn't a communist but socialism and communism aren't that far apart. If you want bums to get free housing and money to be handed out to people too lazy to work, vote for Layton. I was under the impression Canadians wanted LESS gov't control but with Layton, it's ALL GOV'T CONTROL. I don't believe in just giving handouts to people too lazy to work. I dont' believe in free tuition. What about everyone who slaved at three jobs and are still paying off their university debt 8 years later? Isn't it unfair to them that there would be freeloaders getting free schooling?

tigerthelion Wrote:In Canada, all I hear is how Canadians would never have a communist type of government. Well, Jack Layton isn't a communist but socialism and communism aren't that far apart.

You're right...except that Jack Layton isn't a socialist. He's a social democrat. There's a huuuge difference. I'm no fan of the NDP but I do wish to be fair to them. Layton's not a whackjob, though I don't agree with him on many things. He doesn't want total government control, as you suggest. He does want a larger role for the government in the lives of Canadians than I am comfortable with.

Quote:Why would you assume that simply because the NDP is less popular, there must be something wrong with them?

I am not assuming there "must" be something wrong with them. When I stated that I was just starting to pay attention, perhaps I should have said I am not fully informed, and there's plenty of information I'm missing. I have heard why I "shouldn't" vote Liberal, and why I "shouldn't" vote Conservative, all in the media, but I haven't heard why I "shouldn't" vote NDP. Just looking for info. And thanks Skippy for your response, the facts you listed pretty much say there is no reason not to vote NPD, both parties seem to have no ammunition against NDP's issues or policies, just a bunch agrument about polical opinions, which quite frankly, by the way, I am sick of hearing from our leaders.

I am tired of hearing of "vote for me, because the other guys suck" rather than "vote for me because here is what I believe in/stand for"

Quote:What about everyone who slaved at three jobs and are still paying off their university debt 8 years later? Isn't it unfair to them that there would be freeloaders getting free schooling?

If the above is true, I would have to agree, it's pretty idealistic, however I would rather we as a society improve, than stay the same. For example 10 years ago I had to camp out over night, with a barbed wire surround, a blow horn, and AK 47 to keep my place in line to get Hip Tickets, and now some Kid with a T1 can get front row before me, do I think that's unfair? and everyone should "suffer" like I did? I think not.

As for the government paying for post secondary education? What a financial nightmare.

How Stephen Harper reacts to the upcoming Liberal ads will have a huge effect on how this elections turns out for him.

The Liberals are running a series of brutally negative ads aimed directly at Conservative leader Stephen Harper. These are largely juvenile and intellectually dishonest.

One of them states, "Electing Stephen Harper will put a smile on George W. Bush's face."

How low can this Liberal Party go? They will stoop so low as to spit in our neighbours' faces in order to discredit their opposition. What a load.

If Harper remains calm, cool, and collected, and shrugs it off as nothing, then these ads will definitely come out in his favour.

If he responds in anger and indignation, the Liberals will show Canada an angry and mean Harper they hope to create. Throughout this campaign, Harper has done an excellent job of showing himself to be friendly and compassionate. This is an improvement on the last campaign.

fingernailsonhull Wrote:The Liberals are running a series of brutally negative ads aimed directly at Conservative leader Stephen Harper. These are largely juvenile and intellectually dishonest.

Is that juvenile compared to the Conservative radio ad that suggests the Liberals are laughing at Canadians behind closed doors in Ottawa, because they think they're going to get away with adscam?

Or are you using some other yardstick?

The Conservative ads to date have been nothing but recycled headline negativity. One ad by the Conservatives even includes the punch-line: 'PM plans Negative Campaign'...

As far as I can tell, all of the Liberal ads up to date have been extremely positive, with a few pointing out the differences between the Conservatives and Liberals values with a minor shot at Jack Layton by the Health Minister, but ALL Conservative and NDP ads have been negative towards the Liberals.

And Paul Martin was exonerated from the adscam, yet the Conservatives have several ads painting him as a mastermind criminal. They claim Canadians are saving less, which isn't due to any Liberal influence, and that we are paying higher taxes, which isn't true either...

On top of their piss-poor TV spots which are just irritating at best, they point out supposed Liberal flaws in industries that they have no intention of repairing... but instead destroying...

I was hoping for another Liberal minority government, or better, but in light of recent polls, I'll give the Conservatives six months in power before they fall. Their only hope to completely restructure Canada's social policy and align it with a true Conservative agenda is to win a majority government, which is seemingly unlikely...

The Liberals mismanaged $100 Million of taxpayers money in the Sponsor Ship Scandal, but good ol' Harper just cost taxpayers $400 Million by calling an election that will provide a short lived government.

The Conservatives criticize Paul Martin for cutting transfers to health care, but realistically paying down the debt saved the government billions per year in interest payments. It doesn't take an economical genius to understand that paying off your debt is better than investment after a cost/benefit analysis.

And Stephen Harper's proposals are just ridiculous. Based on his proposals, this country will again dive into a deficit. While not as drastic a deficit as the NDP would provide, the Conservatives will overcome Canada's expected surpluses by about $10 Billion in five years. Most of that, of course, is due to his GST reduction ($32 Billion), which really does benefit the higher income demographic in this country. Even you Conservative supporters have to agree with that. The Liberals would essentially meet the expected surpluses, while putting about $19 Billion more into social causes, while offering a more broad tax cut.

But to coin some phrases from previous posts by Conservative supporters (most of which were lost in the forum crash), I'm only voting for the Liberals because I'm scared of Stephen Harper, I've been brainwashed by the Liberals, and a vote for the Liberals is a vote for corruption...

das_hips Wrote:While not as drastic a deficit as the NDP would provide....

Considering that the Conservative platform, as released so far, is more expensive than the NDP platform, I don't know whether you pulled that out of your ass or out of thin air.

Gotta love people who decide how to vote based on fabrications and prejudice ... three cheers for democracy!

skippy the wonder dog Wrote:

fingernailsonhull Wrote:The Liberals are running a series of brutally negative ads aimed directly at Conservative leader Stephen Harper. These are largely juvenile and intellectually dishonest.

Is that juvenile compared to the Conservative radio ad that suggests the Liberals are laughing at Canadians behind closed doors in Ottawa, because they think they're going to get away with adscam?

Or are you using some other yardstick?

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Tories have run their worst TV ad campaign to date. Not only have they been juvenile, but they are flat out poor quality. Same yardstick. However, it has been suggested by more than one media source that these coming ads are the most negative of this campaign.

fingernailsonhull Wrote:One of them states, "Electing Stephen Harper will put a smile on George W. Bush's face."

Actually, that one warmed me up to the Liberals a bit because it was so damn funny. I mean, that ominous tone in the announcer's voice? Please! 22 Minutes couldn't do a better satire of a negative ad.

I'm not sure why people are so concerned about "government involvement" in their lives. What's a government supposed to do? Take your money through taxes and then disappear? Here's what I want my government to do:

1. Provide every single Canadian with quality healthcare through a publicly funded system as outlined in the Health Act.

2. Provide every single Canadian with quality education to prepare them to be active, progressive citizens of our country. The fact that people graduated with onerous debt in the past does not justify saddling future generations with the same problem. Indeed, it's the best argument to not do so.

3. Commit to an environmental policy - starting with a real commitment to the Kyoto Accord - and establish policies that will see real improvement in our natural environment. Climate change induced by our reliance on fossil fuels is real; it's out there for everyone to see. Be an international leader in environmental protection.

4. Assist provinces and municipalities in the maintenance or replacement of our aging infrastructure.

5. Commit to a foreign policy that reflects Canadian values. Do not support regimes that are violators of human rights. Don't tell me that poor people don't need human rights like what we enjoy. Do not allow people to die for lack of food. Do not support World Bank policies that hobble the economic progress of developing countries because they line the pockets of your friends and supporters.

6. Commit to creating an egalitarian society here in Canada. Do not codify historic inequalities through legislation. Do not turn back the clock on social progress.

7. Do this all in a fiscally responsible way. You should neither run up deficits nor realize surpluses at the end of the year. You're a government, not a business. We do not require quarterly, fiscal growth or dividend payouts from you. Take our taxes and provide us with services according to our needs.

These seem like pretty basic things to expect from a democratically elected government but, oddly, the Liberals and Conservatives aren't even promising to do these things.

For all that, I'd prefer a Conservative government to a Liberal government. The media will be all over Harper every time he tries to do something. The Liberals could hatchet away at all our social programs and no one said anything. Harper won't be able to attend a barbeque without being blamed for global warming, mad cow and the hideous practice of wearing of socks with sandals.