The Horrible Esthete Wrote:It amazes me how a population can be so critical of a political neighbor whose mere presence removes them from most any global threat...
hock: WOW. So how does that work out? Canadians should just keep their mouths shut, simply because the US provides them with protection? Seems like a pretty ridiculous suggestion.
I was going to sit by and just watch the carnage on the board unfold, but that is one cocky and irrogant remark.
There is no question that the United States is Canada's biggest ally and that the US protects us. That alone is the biggest reason that us "foreigners" should immerse ourselves in American politics.
I have to get to class, but I am anxious to see how this argument continues when I get back.
opiated Wrote:The Horrible Esthete Wrote:I guess my question is "why do so many foreigners immerse themselves in American politics?
.
because the american government immerses themselves in everybody else's biz...
Oh, I see. Whos 'biz' are we immersed in? The 'biz' of the country who harbors the terrorist organization that slaughtered 2,792 American citizens on their own soil? Or the 'biz' of a country whose dictator ran a regime which was directly responsible for close to two million deaths and whose land serves as a haven for terror groups?
Gosh, America sure is meddlesome! :roll: I wonder if the umpteen countries recieving US aid want us to mind our own business?
LoftyPines Wrote:The Horrible Esthete Wrote:It amazes me how a population can be so critical of a political neighbor whose mere presence removes them from most any global threat...
So Canadians should just keep their mouths shut, simply because the US provides them with protection?
Did I say that? No, Mr. Michael Moore. I'm just amazed that Canadians are so quick to scrutinize and criticize the US, but are stubbornly slow to acknowledge what good the US does for the global economy and your own national security.
Man....you'd think the US was part of the 'Axis of Evil' itself, listening to some of this criticism and misplaced fear......
opiated Wrote:The Horrible Esthete Wrote:I guess my question is "why do so many foreigners immerse themselves in American politics?
.
because the american government immerses themselves in everybody else's biz...
Yep, I've always thought we should turn our attention to our own country and stop being the world's 911. As long as Bush is at the helm, nobody is safe. I can't wait till Nov 2 so I can cast my vote against that idiot.
BTW Esthete, we're not as well loved internationally as some of us think. Being a member of this forum opened my eyes to that fact. You can thank George Bush for that!!! That is why I try and stay out of American Political debates on here.
This has turned into a US vs Canada thing pretty quickly! Of course we in Canada know that the US protects us and is the most powerful nation in the world.
I think some Canadians are just peeved at the current administration and the lack of respect Canada is shown at times by the US and its leader. Leaving Canada out of his speech a while back left a sour tase in Canadian's mouths for instance. I know that isn't a really big deal but to some people it shows lack of character.
I am not for either candidate in the US personally. They both are pretty weak leaders in my mind but one of them will win. I don't think it's a secret that Bush will be known as a very weak president when all is said and done though. The same can probably be said for Kerry after four years if he ends up winning too.
I think you need to give Kerry a chance before making judgments like that. The situation can hardly get any worse, although if Bush is re-elected, I'm sure he'll find some way of screwing things up even more than he already has.
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:LoftyPines Wrote:The Horrible Esthete Wrote:It amazes me how a population can be so critical of a political neighbor whose mere presence removes them from most any global threat...
So Canadians should just keep their mouths shut, simply because the US provides them with protection?
Did I say that? No, Mr. Michael Moore. I'm just amazed that Canadians are so quick to scrutinize and criticize the US, but are stubbornly slow to acknowledge what good the US does for the global economy and your own national security.
Man....you'd think the US was part of the 'Axis of Evil' itself, listening to some of this criticism and misplaced fear......
Easy with the generalizations buddy. I'd argue that the proportion of Canadians who criticize Bush is probably consistent with the proportion of Americans who criticize Bush.
By the way, an anti-Bush comment is not necessarily an anti-US comment:
Strong Majority (73%) of Canadians Agree They Like And Admire Americans, But Only 29% Say They Like And Respect Current Bush Administration (Ipsos-Reid, July 27, 2004)
This is a forum for a band that we all love and this part of the forum is for non-band related discussions. Like it or not, policitics is always going to be a common theme. If you don't like reading what many Canadians think of Bush, you probably should avoid clicking on the links, no? :thumb:
Not that anyone asked, but here's my opinion: why would anyone care what that knob Ben Affleck has to say? Can you imagine making your voting decision based on what that pinhead says?
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:opiated Wrote:The Horrible Esthete Wrote:I guess my question is "why do so many foreigners immerse themselves in American politics?
.
because the american government immerses themselves in everybody else's biz...
Oh, I see. Whos 'biz' are we immersed in? The 'biz' of the country who harbors the terrorist organization that slaughtered 2,792 American citizens on their own soil? Or the 'biz' of a country whose dictator ran a regime which was directly responsible for close to two million deaths and whose land serves as a haven for terror groups?
Gosh, America sure is meddlesome! :roll: I wonder if the umpteen countries recieving US aid want us to mind our own business?
You know there's a world outside of the US and your interests, Americans got killed on their own soil ??? Well what the fuck do you think your country does ? It doesn't have blood on it's hands ? What about all the atrocities your country has carried out directly and indirectly by propping up dictators etc for "ideology" , maybe your ideology would change , or maybe that is your ideology.. 13,000 plus civillians have died in Iraq because of the invasion, ( <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://iraqbodycount.net/">http://iraqbodycount.net/</a><!-- m --> )the terrorists did not come from Iraq. Does this make the US a terrorist nation, knowingly dropping dropping bombs on a civillian population ? Insert rhetoric of "that's the price of freedom" Let me guess you were there for humanitarian reasons , that's why after the fall of Saddam there was no contigency plan in place, point is your country is no saint , it supports brutality if it's in your economic interests.Wouldn't be hard to argue would it ? Or does killing civilians with technology justify the act, call it "collateral damage" ? How can people like you justify the acts people like Bush carry out ? There's more to life than money and economic interests, you live in a bubble, try and look at the world outside of what it means to you through your ideology. No WMD, no contigency plan in place for the fall and nothing but Rhetoric on terrorism. It just infuriates me the level of justification in an action that is clearly unjust , not neccesarily because of the result but because of the motive.
thipfan73 Wrote:As long as Bush is at the helm, nobody is safe.
What the hell
is this??
Nobody's safe? What exactly does that
mean? You'd think the US attcked some peaceful, benign, neural society for no good reason listening to some of this panic-inducing rhetoric! The propaganda gets worse every day, I swear.
thipfan73 Wrote:BTW Esthete, we're not as well loved internationally as some of us think.
Yes, I know we are not well-liked, but this hate (which is founded upon jealousy, more than anything) can be traced back to days long before Bush ever took office.....
I have to say I always enjoy the people who call Bush an idiot. Then you point out he went to Harvard and Yale. The response to that is, well he got in their because of his father. But when you question the person as to what Bush's Dad did when he attended Harvard and Yale and alot of cannot say what his dad did.
In addition, if Bush went to Harvard and Yale because of who his family was or is, does that make every well connected wealthly person to attend those two schools an idiot to? I guess if Bush went to some small local school in Texas he would be called an idiot for not going to a well known school. He loses either way.
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:thipfan73 Wrote:As long as Bush is at the helm, nobody is safe.
What the hell is this?? Nobody's safe? What exactly does that mean?
This means that Bush is an idiot and God knows what the man will do next!
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:thipfan73 Wrote:BTW Esthete, we're not as well loved internationally as some of us think.
Yes, I know we are not well-liked, but this hate (which is founded upon jealousy, more than anything) can be traced back to days long before Bush ever took office.....
I know many Canadians and other people outside of this forum from different places in the world and we are hated more than we ever have been from my personal experience. Yes, people hated us when Clinton was in office, but Georgie baby has really made the world hate us because we have become "war mongers".
I hate how what the Goverment does represents the whole country. I am not for the war in Iraq and I hate George W Bush and I can't wait to get him out of office. I am an American and I'm proud of be american, here I go waving my flag again :lol: , but I'm not happy with how our country is being run and I hate how people generalize and make it sound like we're all evil and hate us because we are Americans.
Keep in mind this comes from a person who voted for Bush because they thought Al Gore didn't have what it takes to be President. I also think he went to Iraq to finish up what his Daddy started. I also think that Al Gore would have done nothing about 9-11 and he would have royally screwed it up. I started to really respect George Bush because of 9-11 but when he went to Iraq he started to lose me.
CanuckCourage Wrote:You know there's a world outside of the US and your interests, Americans got killed on their own soil ??? Well what the f**k do you think your country does ? It doesn't have blood on it's hands ? What about all the atrocities your country has carried out directly and indirectly by propping up dictators etc for "ideology" , maybe your ideology would change , or maybe that is your ideology.. 13,000 plus civillians have died in Iraq because of the invasion, ( <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://iraqbodycount.net/">http://iraqbodycount.net/</a><!-- m --> )the terrorists did not come from Iraq. Does this make the US a terrorist nation, knowingly dropping dropping bombs on a civillian population ? Insert rhetoric of "that's the price of freedom"
Well, let's see:
Between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqis and between 450,000 and 730,000 Iranians killed during the Iran-Iraq War. An estimated 1,000 Kuwaiti nationals killed following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. No conclusive figures for the number of Iraqis killed during the Gulf War, with estimates varying from as few as 1,500 to as many as 200,000. Over 100,000 Kurds killed or "disappeared". No reliable figures for the number of Iraqi dissidents and Shi'ite Muslims killed during Hussein's reign, though estimates put the figure between 60,000 and 100,000. (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shi'ites and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000). Approximately 500,000 Iraqi children dead because of international trade sanctions introduced following the Gulf War. Documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulted in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths. Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.
13,000 lives sacrificed to remove a dictator who killed millions and who knows how many in the future? Not what you'd hope would occur, but yes, that
is the reality of war, Canuck.
I suppose you have a problem with the scores of civilians that died when the Allies removed Hitler from power, too?
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:I suppose you have a problem with the scores of civilians that died when the Allies removed Hitler from power, too?
Not trying to start anything, just stating a fact, Canadians fought in WW2, my Grandfather was on the beach in Normandy fighting right along with them.
You say this:
cferneyh Wrote:Easy with the generalizations buddy. I'd argue that the proportion of Canadians who criticize Bush is probably consistent with the proportion of Americans who criticize Bush.
Then you post
this
cferneyh Wrote:Strong Majority (73%) of Canadians Agree They Like And Admire Americans, But Only 29% Say They Like And Respect Current Bush Administration (Ipsos-Reid, July 27, 2004)
You contradict yourself here. Depending on the source, Bush's approval rating in America ranges between 45% and 55%. Thus, my 'generalization' mimics the actual truth.....buddy.
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:You say this:
cferneyh Wrote:Easy with the generalizations buddy. I'd argue that the proportion of Canadians who criticize Bush is probably consistent with the proportion of Americans who criticize Bush.
Then you post this
cferneyh Wrote:Strong Majority (73%) of Canadians Agree They Like And Admire Americans, But Only 29% Say They Like And Respect Current Bush Administration (Ipsos-Reid, July 27, 2004)
You contradict yourself here. Depending on the source, Bush's approval rating in America ranges between 45% and 55%. Thus, my 'generalization' mimics the actual truth.....buddy.
Can you do me a favour and explain to me how "like and respect" is to be interpreted as "approval rating"? For example, I like and respect Paul Martin, but I don't necessarily approve of the job he's done as PM of Canada thus far. Contradict myself? Hardly. You just put your spin on it to interpret it the way you see fit. Of course, you are notorious for this now, so no real surprise.
My quote of
the proportion of Canadians who criticize Bush is probably consistent with the proportion of Americans who criticize Bush is based upon the fact that I also visit a Wilco forum from time to time. There are
a lot fewer Canucks there, but there is just as much anger directed at Bush. I haven't done a scientific sampling to determine if my opinion is corrent or not, it just happens to be an observation based on the online circles I run in.