grooveless touque Wrote:Not with Bush and Cheney being in bed with all kinds of major corporations. You claim you don't want government control, but behind the scenes, Bush's people and the corporate heads are controlling America's entire destiny. That doesn't scare you more than a little socialism which eschews corporate rule?
By the way, have you NOTHING to say about Afghanistan? Not surprising. I imagine that's mighty embarassing for you conservatives, trying to attack Kerry for lack on conviction!
A little socialism which eschews corporate rule? No offense, grooveless, but I think you are far off base on this. Canada's semi-socialist form of government, with its policies on public health funding,transfer payments from rich provinces to poor ones, etc etc, also has its corruption problems that involve corporations and politics (ie Adscam and Paul Martin's steamship company). Any form of government that doesnt have checks and balances built into is susceptible to corruption. If it were really true that the Big Evil Corporations had Bush as their puppet, don't you think it likely that the EPA would simply cease to exist? Yet you don't see that happening, nor will it. Public discussion, warts and all, is the strongest check on the appetites of corporations or government bureacracy. An economic system that rewards people for their own entrepreneurship and creativity is better in my opinion than a system where the government decides the amount of wealth each person earns. A system where the government is the biggest employer and provider is a system built on a house of cards that will eventually collapse as people demand more and more services as a right yet feel resentful as their taxes to pay for all these services increases astronomically.
As a sidenote to the discussion about Afghanistan, I have the feeling that some of the US troops currently deployed in Europe and Asia will be shifted to bases in Afghanistan as part of the post Cold War restructuring. We are doing what we can to deal with the Taliban remnants but we also have to remember Afghanistan's history of hatred towards the appearance of occupation. No doubt there is chaos in Afghanistan but the situation isnt so simple we can send more troops into Afghanistan and have the populace, who are divided on many tribal/ethnic/religious lines, welcome us with wide open arms. We can't force democracy on them, they have to look past their ethnic/tribal differences and see the benefits of democracy for themselves. It's also one of the reasons we aren't using overwhelming force against Al-Sadr in Iraq, even though we could easily wipe the floor with his ragtag army.
The only time I've ever even or thought it would be good to be american was when the Hip announce american tour dates, other then that Im fine with being Canadian.
Shane
Well, I know this debate could go on forever, but there are a few things I want to respond to. Firstly, Bush can't get rid entirely of the EPA. Once Americans realized what it meant, they'd revolt. All Bush does is quietly ignore them. As governor of Texas his record on the environment is downright infamous, and repealing environmental policies has been one of his favourite pasttimes since taking the office in the West Wing. He just does it that way so it's not all out in the open - one more example of his duplicitousness. Anybody who CARES about the environment protests Bush's moves, but Bush makes sure the vast majority of Americans are sufficiently distracted by "bigger" issues. Why should we bother trying to ensure the world's resources and environment are as sustainable and beneficial as possible when we have to worry about people wearing hijabs?!
Secondly, you don't think your government dictates corporate direction and, subsequently, how much certain people can make? You think all those no-bid contracts given to Halliburton without process don't contribute billions to all the wrong pockets while taking work away from other companies and their employees?
And what's this about a house of cards? Canada is one of the world's stablest and most successful socially-minded states. The American Empire will stumble under its own weight before Canadians revolt against helping those around us!
I dont' know if you guys have heard this, but it's damn funny:
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Oh George, when will you ever learn? Well, maybe when you become a one-termer like your father...
Well surpriiiiise surprise...just in time to complement my arguments about corporate rule in the US, the Pentagon has decided to reverse its decision to withhold 15 percent of the financial compensation Halliburton was to receive under contract. Halliburton turned from mere corporate monolith to extortionist supreme, overcharging the American military for everything from fuel to services and saying that any breach of contract - by the government, not them of course - would jeapordize delivery of services. So what does the military do? Looks the other way, naturally, and hands the full amount over to Halliburton!
Not a smart way to do business....then again, from all his failed companies, we know Bush isn't a smart businessman!
i think the bush's or chenny has something to do with haliburton so the plot fuckin thickens i will vote for which ever canidate will do the least amout of harm to myself and family
right now there is now clear cut favorite
all i know is all that are in office in the senate and house for new york state i will vote to replace them. the budget was late again for the 10th year in row
this time it was like over 100 days damn jackasses if i ran a buisness that way well you know where i would be out of a job.
also where does all the lottery money go ? we should make n.y.c. the district of new york (like d.c.) so to save some of us western new yorkers a shit load of money on our taxes
thanks for listening ( or should i say reading)
Ron
Number Four Bobby Orr Wrote:I dont' know if you guys have heard this, but it's damn funny:
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Oh George, when will you ever learn? Well, maybe when you become a one-termer like your father...
Oh sweet Jesus...
errr, that link doesnt work for me, strangely
cratch:
Anyway, here are a couple of helpful facts about the Haliburton "scandal". They had subcontractors for feeding the troops (which overcharged Haliburton for meals never delivered) and for supplying fuel to the military. Haliburton didn't do any due-diligence on whether or not the subcontractors were being honest and passed the bill onto the military, which caught the errors and held Haliburton responsible as written into their contract. If memory serves, but subcontractors were local Kuwaiti firms who saw an opportunity to make a pile of dough and skimp on what they were supposed to do, Haliburton screwed up and is now paying the price for their error of judgement. The no-bid part of the scandal is a matter of having a company who has the experience and the connections to to move in quickly after the military went in and did their business. If they had to do it all over again and the government had had sufficient time to set up a bidding process (which on the federal government level takes up to a year), they would have done so.
Grooveless, I respect your opinions. To be truthful, I haven't researched Bush's or Kerry's political views in depth. I have just heard what I've heard on tv and in the papers and I don't have time for a rebuttal of all your points.
It just seems like even your arguments when defending Kerry are all aimed at bashing Bush. Well, anyone looks good compared to Bush and Cheney. I just don't think people should go and watch "Farenheit 9/11" and come out of the theatre voting Democrat just because of the movie. Yes, Bush seems to be a poor president but I have yet to see another candidate as a clearcut born leader. Personally, if Kerry is against abortion he should support a federal law against it, as well as gay marriage. It is such an easy way to avoid the situation by leaving it up to the individual states. I do think though that maybe having the states govern themselves on these laws may be the proper thing to do but still. As far as the war, OF COURSE he's going to say he supports the war but it should be handled in a different manner. What else is he going to say? That he was against the war from the start? Can't do that because he wasn't against it. Now, it's easy for everyone to look good by saying they would handle the war differently. Did Kerry give a detailed explanation on how he would handle the current situation in Iraq? Just curious. After all, it's all about perception right! It's all how people PERCEIVE the candidate. Probably 40% of the voters vote based on what someone tells them on CNN or CNBC.
well, see, that's the thing, you get the same soundbite no matter what channel you turn to...that's how Bush plays his game...Kerry gave a great speech at the Democratic convention and if everybody that's going to vote this November would've heard it i would garauntee Kerry would win.
Yes, once again the issue of sound bites comes up. I think it's shameful that Bush's camp forces every one of those theoretically intelligent people to speak the same quotes. It's fantastic to see the media showing four different members of the White House Gang - Cheney, Powell, Rice and that weasel Scott McClellan (who everybody in the media would like to take potshots at in a mob-rule situation) - using precisely the same words in four different situations on four different shows. This is one of the brainwashing tactics the Bush people use...Democrats, and liberals by nature, allow people free reign...there's a lot more room for personal interpretation and freedom of expression, whereas the Bush camp projects a hilarious facade of "unity" by having their people read from the same scripts. Of course, superficial voters don't look beneath this, and don't watch the programs exposing these tactics for what they are. The Republicans manage to keep tight hold of opinions expressed as everybody is expected to toe the party line in perfect step. That's not governance, that's a zombie-ocracy!
I'm American, I consider myself very patriotic and anit-war. I think our country needs to vote out the Bush Administration before they pick another fight. Oh yeah, I think a lot of Canadian rock bands are great. The Hip, Wide Mouth Mason, and BNL just to name a few.
I said it before and I'll stand by it til the day I die;
there is a secret group of individuals running everything.
You need and buy what they need you to need and buy.
Yeah, yeah, Dubya's a marionette (sp?) and so is Justin Timberlake.
These dudes stand behind the curtains pulling the strings.
They are everything that is wrong with the world.
They were the ones who wrote the bible, invented the plague and faked the lunar-landing.
They killed JFK and Lincoln and assassinated more I'm sure.
Every little piece is in its place....
Every little piece is in its place....
I gotta lay off the KoolAid...
you wouldn't be speaking of...the illuminati...would you?
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:Stephen Dame Wrote:It's not. Is it hard to understand that a large number of us feel it's wrong and that corruption comes not from structure, but from leaving things to the business elites and the invisible hand?
Not it's not hard to understand, and that's why from this point foreward, debate on this topic will just swirl round and round without making any real progress. You love your country, and believe in it. The same goes for me. I don't don't see any problem with that, since we are all entitled to our opinions
Here, however, is what I don't understand. I think your opinions and perspectives are valid regarding this subject, and clearly see how your views are different than mine. Different, but not necessarily wrong. In contrast, the attitude that you, as well as many other Canadians I've endeavored to discuss this topic with, seems awfully accusatory and villifying towards American ideals. You even said "a large number of us feel it's wrong" when you commented on my perspective.
Canadians have every right to be proud of their nation and believe in the principles it is founded upon; why do I always find myself defending the pride I have for my country and its foundations? The quality of life is good here, too, and if you seriously try to tell me that the US has historically had a negative overall impact on the quality of life for people elsewhere around the globe, it will surely fall on deaf ears.
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Oh, and by the way - corruption doesn't come solely from "leaving things to the business elites and the invisible hand"; corruption comes from any type of soverign power, combined with a lack of checks and balances over such authority. Still, it pervades our system; but I think that there is greater opportunity for corruption to be exposed and punished in this system than in any other system on the planet.....
Dude, I respect your opinions, but you don't want to give a shread of creedence to anyone opposed to your views. It benefits no one to never see the point of view of the other.
And as for tolerance, which one of us posted this again?
"I think there will be a groundswell for Kerry when democrats re-ignite the less-educated, more gullible faction of their constituency."
I literally had to rub my eyes. That coulda come straight from the mouth of George Wallace, Strom Thurman or Huey Long.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think you can preach tolerance and self-righetousness when you're posting stuff like that.