PunBB

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I'd say Edmonton is the smallest market in the NHL.

from Wikipedia.org:
Largest Census Metropolitan Areas in Canada:

1. Toronto (GTA) 5,113,149
2. Montreal/Laval 3,635,571
3. Vancouver/Surrey 2,116,581
4. Ottawa/Gatineau 1,130,761
5. Calgary 1,079,310
6. Edmonton 1,034,945

Not by much, mind you.

schaggs Wrote:Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I'd say Edmonton is the smallest market in the NHL.

from Wikipedia.org:
Largest Census Metropolitan Areas in Canada:

1. Toronto (GTA) 5,113,149
2. Montreal/Laval 3,635,571
3. Vancouver/Surrey 2,116,581
4. Ottawa/Gatineau 1,130,761
5. Calgary 1,079,310
6. Edmonton 1,034,945

Not by much, mind you.

You beat me to it.

das_hips Wrote:All that I am providing is that Ottawa has outdrawn Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary for the better part of the last six season (although Calgary has certainly done quite well the last two seasons)

Not sure what you're basing that on. According to the stats on ESPN.com, only in the last two years has Ottawa surpassed Vancouver in total attendance, and that is a product of the fact that Ottawa has a bigger building. Vancouver is still selling out every game. As for the Alberta teams, In '01-'02, '02-'03, and '03-'04 both Calgary and Edmonton filled a greater percentage of their seats than Ottawa, with the Oilers falling slightly behind the past two seasons.

grimes Wrote:

schaggs Wrote:Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I'd say Edmonton is the smallest market in the NHL.

from Wikipedia.org:
Largest Census Metropolitan Areas in Canada:

1. Toronto (GTA) 5,113,149
2. Montreal/Laval 3,635,571
3. Vancouver/Surrey 2,116,581
4. Ottawa/Gatineau 1,130,761
5. Calgary 1,079,310
6. Edmonton 1,034,945

Not by much, mind you.

You beat me to it.

I think that anybody living in Ottawa can provide that the population documented by that 'wikipedia' article is fairly misleading, while being entirely accurate. The City of Ottawa had a population of 350,000 six years ago, and after intense provincial and municipal government pressure, amalgamation occurred, essentially encompassing the surrounding suburbs of Kanata, Nepean, Barrhaven, Vanier, and Orleans. While I can certainly understand including these 'burbs in the census population, it didn't stop there. As it stands, the 'National Capital Region', as it is coined for tourist and relation purposes, is an area that spans nearly 3000 square kilometres (the largest metropolitan city in the country by area, and perhaps North America). So by the book, yes, Ottawa is larger then Edmonton and Calgary, but in all reality, if you were to drop a 3000 square kilometre boundary centred at either downtown Calgary, or downtown Edmonton, Ottawa would still be smaller. The fact that Ottawa is just marginally larger then Calgary and Edmonton with the inclusion of Gatineau, which is relevant by proximity only, demonstrates, to me, at least, that Ottawa is in fact the smallest NHL market.

das_hips Wrote:All that I am providing is that Ottawa has outdrawn Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary for the better part of the last six season (although Calgary has certainly done quite well the last two seasons)

grimes Wrote:Not sure what you're basing that on. According to the stats on ESPN.com, only in the last two years has Ottawa surpassed Vancouver in total attendance, and that is a product of the fact that Ottawa has a bigger building. Vancouver is still selling out every game. As for the Alberta teams, In '01-'02, '02-'03, and '03-'04 both Calgary and Edmonton filled a greater percentage of their seats than Ottawa, with the Oilers falling slightly behind the past two seasons.

That is a ridiculous argument. How can you so blindly incorporate the only two indicators (attendance, and % capacity) of attendance into one sentence, work them against each other, and fashionably work it all against Ottawa?

Here are the facts, in attendance fashion, because capacity %, which you so eloquently used as rational logic, is only relevant when there are sell-outs across the board, and even at that, not all that relevant; there would be no argument...

2000-01: Ottawa outdrew Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary
2001-02: Ottawa outdrew Calgary and Edmonton
2002-03: Ottawa outdrew Calgary and Edmonton
2003-04: Ottawa outdrew Calgary and Edmonton
2005-06: Ottawa outdrew Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary
2006-07: Ottawa outdrew Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary

So while you argue that Ottawa only surpassed Vancouver in the last two years because of arena capacity (which I don't argue with), your logic that Edmonton and Calgary filled a greater percentage of their seats is poor; it completely contradicts your reason for the Ottawa and Vancouver comparison...

This all really stems from your initial comment that Ottawa lacked fan-fare and attendance; all I'm trying to provide is that you're wrong...

I think the anti-Senators movement will find this disturbing, but will add ammunition for the cause...

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/05/17/senators-assault-070517.html">http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2 ... 70517.html</a><!-- m -->

das_hips Wrote:I think the anti-Senators movement will find this disturbing, but will add ammunition for the cause...

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/05/17/senators-assault-070517.html">http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2 ... 70517.html</a><!-- m -->

Geeze, who knew that Matt Cooke and Alex Burrows are Sens fans?

das_hips Wrote:I think that anybody living in Ottawa can provide that the population documented by that 'wikipedia' article is fairly misleading, while being entirely accurate. The City of Ottawa had a population of 350,000 six years ago, and after intense provincial and municipal government pressure, amalgamation occurred, essentially encompassing the surrounding suburbs of Kanata, Nepean, Barrhaven, Vanier, and Orleans. While I can certainly understand including these 'burbs in the census population, it didn't stop there. As it stands, the 'National Capital Region', as it is coined for tourist and relation purposes, is an area that spans nearly 3000 square kilometres (the largest metropolitan city in the country by area, and perhaps North America). So by the book, yes, Ottawa is larger then Edmonton and Calgary, but in all reality, if you were to drop a 3000 square kilometre boundary centred at either downtown Calgary, or downtown Edmonton, Ottawa would still be smaller. The fact that Ottawa is just marginally larger then Calgary and Edmonton with the inclusion of Gatineau, which is relevant by proximity only, demonstrates, to me, at least, that Ottawa is in fact the smallest NHL market.

Well if you don't want to include Gatineau as part of the Ottawa market, we can use the municipalities themselves instead of the CMA's. Ottawa still isn't the smallest according to the 2006 census:

1 Toronto, Ontario (City) 2,503,281
2 Montreal, Quebec (Ville) 1,620,693
3 Calgary, Alberta (City) 988,193
4 Ottawa, Ontario (City) 812,129
5 Edmonton, Alberta (City) 730,372
6 Mississauga, Ontario (City) 668,549
7 Winnipeg, Manitoba (City) 633,451
8 Vancouver, British Columbia (City) 578,041
9 Hamilton, Ontario (City) 504,559
10 Quebec City, Quebec (Ville) 491,142

das_hips Wrote:This all really stems from your initial comment that Ottawa lacked fan-fare and attendance; all I'm trying to provide is that you're wrong...

The percentage of tickets sold in entirely relevant. A team has a given number of tickets to sell for each game, with the goal being to sell every one of them. Thus the percentage sold indicates how well the team is achieving that goal. But since all you want to do is prove my original point wrong, we don't even need to be discussing the other teams. I said of Ottawa: "...they're actually selling out their building for a change." There's really nothing to prove wrong there. It is a fact that until last season, NHL games in Ottawa were not, on average, played before capacity crowds.

grimes Wrote:Well if you don't want to include Gatineau as part of the Ottawa market, we can use the municipalities themselves instead of the CMA's. Ottawa still isn't the smallest according to the 2006 census...

You clearly didn't read what I wrote. I'll accept that Ottawa is, on paper, larger then Edmonton (and Vancouver; you figure that one out), but you must also concede that the mere fact that Ottawa's population (not Ottawa/Gatineau, just Ottawa) covers an area of 2700 square kilometres (the metro population is reliant on 5300 square kilometres), paints a somewhat misguided picture of actual population. The city of Edmonton, by comparison, spans a whopping 684 square kilometres. Take that same 700 square-kilometre boundary, and apply it to Ottawa, and you're looking at the 'City of Ottawa', circa 1999, a population of about 500,000. I don't expect you to entirely understand, not because I think you're ignorant, but because you don't live here, and are unfamiliar with the city itself. When I return home from Kingston, or Toronto, 35 minutes from the central-west end of Ottawa (where the 416 connects the 401 and 417) I commonly view the 'Welcome to Ottawa' sign... its a good 20 minutes from there that I actually view any form of civilization, and that is generally in the form of a farmer and cow.

das_hips Wrote:This all really stems from your initial comment that Ottawa lacked fan-fare and attendance; all I'm trying to provide is that you're wrong...

grimes Wrote:The percentage of tickets sold in entirely relevant. A team has a given number of tickets to sell for each game, with the goal being to sell every one of them. Thus the percentage sold indicates how well the team is achieving that goal.

I'm sorry, you're just wrong. It's quite simple really. Pretend for a minute that Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton were the same size, as Wikipedia demonstrates they are (likewise, I have demonstrated they realistically are not; you don't have to believe me, you can check for yourself)... until every team produces sell-outs (100% capacity, in which case, there is no argument to make), actual attendance figures mean a whole lot more then capacity sales. Now, introduce the fact that Ottawa has one of the largest arenas in the league. Capacity attendance is not only immediately skewed, but still inherently irrelevant. I'm not sure where you are lost on this. Regardless of capacity, Ottawa sold more tickets than Calgary and Edmonton the last six seasons, while all three clubs didn't produce 100% capacity for four of the last six years. It's really just that simple.

grimes Wrote:But since all you want to do is prove my original point wrong, we don't even need to be discussing the other teams. I said of Ottawa: "...they're actually selling out their building for a change." There's really nothing to prove wrong there. It is a fact that until last season, NHL games in Ottawa were not, on average, played before capacity crowds.

That is correct, and I don't disagree with you there. It indeed is a fact that Ottawa did not sell out consistently prior to the 05/06 NHL season.

I am simply trying to denounce your implicit notion that Ottawa lacks a fan-base, that Ottawa consists of 'band-wagoners', and that Ottawa isn't a hockey town. It's not the first time this has been brought up on this forum, yet still, I fight... because, based on what I have presented, Ottawa is just as much a hockey town as Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver... per capita?... Ottawa is just as much a hockey town as Toronto and Montreal...

It's nothing personal, of course. It certainly would be ideal if Ottawa had sold out every game for the last six years, but, alas, we don't carry the population of Toronto (for that, I am thankful; Toronto is a damn fine city, dare I say the damnendest finest city in the world, but I prefer Ottawa). I also am a huge Jays fan, but I'm more accustomed to watching them in late April (when it all falls apart for the Senators), and I hope that when baseball season rolls around for us Ottawa Jay's fans, we're looking a shade shy of 10 above .500...

I truly hope that this forum-topic becomes defunct in about 16 hours, and if you're in the Hipbase Baseball Pool, watch out for them there Zoo Lions... a force to be reckoned with...

das_hips Wrote:You clearly didn't read what I wrote. I'll accept that Ottawa is, on paper, larger then Edmonton (and Vancouver; you figure that one out), but you must also concede that the mere fact that Ottawa's population (not Ottawa/Gatineau, just Ottawa) covers an area of 2700 square kilometres (the metro population is reliant on 5300 square kilometres), paints a somewhat misguided picture of actual population. The city of Edmonton, by comparison, spans a whopping 684 square kilometres. Take that same 700 square-kilometre boundary, and apply it to Ottawa, and you're looking at the 'City of Ottawa', circa 1999, a population of about 500,000. I don't expect you to entirely understand, not because I think you're ignorant, but because you don't live here, and are unfamiliar with the city itself. When I return home from Kingston, or Toronto, 35 minutes from the central-west end of Ottawa (where the 416 connects the 401 and 417) I commonly view the 'Welcome to Ottawa' sign... its a good 20 minutes from there that I actually view any form of civilization, and that is generally in the form of a farmer and cow.

I accept that Ottawa is bigger geographically, but if I'm in the front office at the Sens, I would still look at all those people as potential customers.

das_hips Wrote:I'm sorry, you're just wrong. It's quite simple really. Pretend for a minute that Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton were the same size, as Wikipedia demonstrates they are (likewise, I have demonstrated they realistically are not; you don't have to believe me, you can check for yourself)... until every team produces sell-outs (100% capacity, in which case, there is no argument to make), actual attendance figures mean a whole lot more then capacity sales. Now, introduce the fact that Ottawa has one of the largest arenas in the league. Capacity attendance is not only immediately skewed, but still inherently irrelevant. I'm not sure where you are lost on this. Regardless of capacity, Ottawa sold more tickets than Calgary and Edmonton the last six seasons, while all three clubs didn't produce 100% capacity for four of the last six years. It's really just that simple.

I will concede Calgary, but Edmonton has essentially been at full capacity for the last five seasons. As someone who has tried to get tickets to a game in Edmonton on short notice a few times over the years, I can tell you that when they announce a crowd that is 97 or 98% of the capacity, the only remaining tickets available are singles. Edmonton has one of (if not the) smallest buildings in the league, so until they replace Rexall and have the opportunity to sell 20,000 tickets a night, it's simply not a fair comparison to look at total attendance alone.

das_hips Wrote:I truly hope that this forum-topic becomes defunct in about 16 hours, and if you're in the Hipbase Baseball Pool, watch out for them there Zoo Lions... a force to be reckoned with...

I'm the Springfield Isotopes...struggling a little with what seems like half my team on the DL, but you did only beat me 5-4 last week.

I'm off for the long-weekend, happy May 2-4 everyone!

das_hips Wrote:uot;]
I truly hope that this forum-topic becomes defunct in about 16 hours, and if you're in the Hipbase Baseball Pool, watch out for them there Zoo Lions... a force to be reckoned with...

I'm the Springfield Isotopes...struggling a little with what seems like half my team on the DL, but you did only beat me 5-4 last week.

I'm off for the long-weekend, happy May 2-4 everyone![/quote]

Well congrats to ottawa good luck in the cup
as for the baseball pool zoo lions watch out for mojo pin we have you in our crosshairs.

Ron

das_hips Wrote:Ottawa is just as much a hockey town as Toronto and Montreal...

now now, let's not get carried away here, or have any delusions of grandeur...

Montreal..."the city IS hockey"...if you don't know what i'm talkin about... we didn't want you to know ...


and Toronto, well,despite the fact that there's all those crappy leafs fans with corporate seats in the lounges, not even using their seats during games, they still have an insane fanbase (who i sympathize with for not being able to afford to see their team play, it's expensive to go to habs game form Sudbury too lol, ) and are always going to be the most popular team in town...even if when the raps or jays or fc ow w/e become world champs...the Leafs own T-dot, for better or for worse...

Ottawa, well theSens are all they got now, so they better damn well be a hockey town haha...better than just having the 67's right? except i actually i have a soft spot for the 67's :thumb:

all that being said, i still think OTtawa's gonna win the cup this year, much to my chagrin...

maybe only my prediction can jinx them out of a cup lol...it'd be kinda funny to see all the pissed off Oil fans too if Pronger and the Ducks win :lol: ...don't act surprised that i'm bein a dick in the hockey discussion now though anybody, i am a leafs fan...zing...oops, i dentity crisis there, habs fan, habs fan hehe, i'm even worse :twisted:

Sorry for beating a dead horse...

Ottawa's "National Capital Region" isn't the largest city by area in Ontario, nevermind North America.

Ottawa metro (includes National Capital Region, but not Gatineau-Hull), as you said - is approximately 5300 square kilometres.

Metro Toronto - Includes the amalgamated Toronto, plus Pickering, Ajax, Vaughan, and Mississauga, = 5700 square kilometres.

Metro Edmonton - Includes.... well..... Edmonton, and Fort Saskatchewan.... maybe. = 9417 square kilometres.

but, metro Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal are all smaller.

Can we discuss small market hockey teams and their fan support based on metro populations now?

For what it's worth, Ottawa still has the smallest season ticket base of any Canadian team, and if my memory is correct also the smallest season ticket base in the NHL.

The team has not suffered overall because it has done well on the ice which has kept the walkup ticket buying rate high.

This is a once in a lifetime chance for the Sens in terms of generating more season ticket buys, if they don't take advantage of it then it's hard to figure if the fault lies with the organization or the market. Given what I know about the Sens organization, I'd lean slightly towards the market.

Sorry Sens fans, maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I see it.

J-Monster, you've been kind of MIA for a while haven't you?

Just read your post in the other thread. Welcome back.

fingernailsonhull Wrote:Just read your post in the other thread. Welcome back.

Thanks, it's good to be back! :thumb: