[Sam]

Perhaps she was high on methamphetemines and swinging said knife and/or hammer over the head of a helpless infant? Although, I imagine those sorts of details would have made the news reports.

I stand by my original comment that the police used their tasers inappropriately, regardless of the situation, for 2 salient reasons:

1. If they were close enough to use the tasers, they were close enough to grab her arms and restrain her. Police are actually trained in physical restraint. I would hope that physically restraining a 56 yr old woman confined to a wheelchair would be within the officers' capabilities.

2. The woman is dead and, according to the reports, no one else (police officers included) was even injured.

That said, assuming that the woman in a wheelchair "swung knives and a hammer at relatives and police", and that she wouldn't follow the commands given to her by the authorities, then what is the alternative?

The alternative? Isolate her so that she can't hurt anyone and 'talk her down.' If it looks like she's going to hurt herself, then you move in and restrain her. It would probably take longer than the time it takes to charge a taser but, in the end, it would probably lead to a better outcome.

[VioletlightHeron]

I stand by my original comment that the police used their tasers inappropriately, regardless of the situation, for 2 salient reasons:

1. If they were close enough to use the tasers, they were close enough to grab her arms and restrain her. Police are actually trained in physical restraint. I would hope that physically restraining a 56 yr old woman confined to a wheelchair would be within the officers' capabilities.

2. The woman is dead and, according to the reports, no one else (police officers included) was even injured.

The alternative? Isolate her so that she can't hurt anyone and 'talk her down.' If it looks like she's going to hurt herself, then you move in and restrain her. It would probably take longer than the time it takes to charge a taser but, in the end, it would probably lead to a better outcome.

Given that the media reports say that she did swing knives and hammers at police and relatives, I'd assume she was swinging the knives and hammers at relatives before the police got there and when the police tried to disarm her, she started swinging at them. It's not unheard of to have relatives standing outside a standoff trying to coax a family member to give up. It's also not unheard of for a family member to try and break through police lines in the belief that their presence will calm the situation when that just makes the situation even tenser. In a situation where the subject is volatile and dangerous, isolating her and trying to talk her down might or might not work. What if she decides to barricade herself in a room and any kind of entry by police into the room sets her off and she decides to kill herself? What if she lunges at the police when they try to physically restrain her from harming herself or another officer? I agree with Skippy that police need better training on Tasers, but at the present I believe tasers are the best non-lethal option for police to subdue violent subjects.

[brown_eyed_girl]

i had no idea this was going to cause such debate..sorry if i pissed someone off....well shit happens get over it.....uhmmm not pulling a wendy....just so you know...

[fingernailsonhull]

Not at all. This was a good thread - good lively debate.

[skippy the wonder dog]

Not at all. This was a good thread - good lively debate.

No it wasn't. You're wrong.

[fingernailsonhull]

Not at all. This was a good thread - good lively debate.

No it wasn't. You're wrong.

I'll take issue with that. :lol:

[brown_eyed_girl]

lmfao.....

[The Horrible Esthete]

I guess I forgot that that people in wheelchairs are uncoordinated and completely inept, and that knife wounds inflicted by these individuals are never life-threatening.

I also failed to consider that 56-year-old wheelchair-bound women weilding knives are easily 'restrained' by simply offering them a warm cup of tea, then grabbing their hands and saying 'gotcha' when they reach out to accept it.

[Sam]

I guess I forgot that that people in wheelchairs are uncoordinated and completely inept, and that knife wounds inflicted by these individuals are never life-threatening.

I also failed to consider that 56-year-old wheelchair-bound women weilding knives are easily 'restrained' by simply offering them a warm cup of tea, then grabbing their hands and saying 'gotcha' when they reach out to accept it.

Wow. You're right. She was a violent, vicious criminal - possibly a Ninja, too. She could have laid those 2 able-bodied officers on their selfless, public servant asses before they could have controlled her physically. Too bad they stopped at the taser. They should have shot her before her malevolent influence spread. Then, they could have drawn and quartered her and hung her remains at the crossroads as a warning against other who would challenge the gun-toting, Kevlar vest wearing police from their wheelchairs with knives and hammers.

Or, am I exaggerating your argument to the point of ridiculousness too?

Look, you want to know what probably happened? The woman in the wheelchair probably wasn't a sweet granny who happened to be off her meds that day. Shall I put it blunitly? She was probably a bitch, possibly borderline criminal and "known to the police" - as we 'in the biz' like to say. She was probably verbally abusive as well as somewhat armed. She probably pissed the cops off. They probably had good cause to think she was a worthless, pain the ass.

But. Cops get paid to deal with worthless pains in the ass. They're not supposed to deal with them by escalating their response prematurely. That's what it comes down to.

Blindly support them, if you like. I'll opt to remain capable critical thought, thanks.

[fingernailsonhull]

She was a violent, vicious criminal - possibly a Ninja, too.

What if she was ten ninjas?

[Billy]

She was a violent, vicious criminal - possibly a Ninja, too.

What if she was ten ninjas?

That's easy, ten taser blasts.

I thought everyone knew that the number of taser blasts is directly propotional to the number of ninjas that you are.

[Jenna_Bird]

I guess I forgot that that people in wheelchairs are uncoordinated and completely inept, and that knife wounds inflicted by these individuals are never life-threatening.

I also failed to consider that 56-year-old wheelchair-bound women weilding knives are easily 'restrained' by simply offering them a warm cup of tea, then grabbing their hands and saying 'gotcha' when they reach out to accept it.

She was probably verbally abusive as well as somewhat armed.

But. Cops get paid to deal with worthless pains in the ass. They're not supposed to deal with them by escalating their response prematurely. That's what it comes down to.

I don't think that knives and hammers would qualify as "somewhat" armed. There's really no "somewhat" about it. If someone is being threatening and abusive towards *anyone* that taking approved steps to eliminating that threat is justified. That is not to say that I wish the woman ill, or think that she deserved to die, but threatening an officer of the law has consequences. They used a taser with the intent to subdue her, not to irreversibly harm/kill her.

-Jenna

[The Horrible Esthete]

I see, Sam. I'm blindly supportive of the cops' methods and incapable of critical thought, as you imply. Fine.

All the while, your argument is completely reactionary, and you can be confident in your criticism because you benefit from looking at the situation in retrospect, knowing the tragic result of their decision. I'm sure even the cops, deep down inside, know that their choice was the wrong one after seeing how things ended. Oh, if only they could see the future through these pressurized incidents.

But alas, they couldn't know what would happen. What's more, they most likely followed procedure right down to the specific situational criteria. I sincerely do not believe that a subject's gender and age make her weapon less deadly. The fact that you think so seems a little naive to me.

This is precisely why tasers have been adopted in police departments everywhere -- to subdue subjects brandishing deadly weapons who refuse to comply with orders without risking getting stabbed or shot. Tasers affect different people in different ways. Here in Cincinnati, there was an incident where a knife-wielding 10-year-old sustained repeated taserings before a fifth or sixth blast finally subdued him. If these cops wanted to kill her, they would have shot her with their .38 or 9mm.

My reason for defending the cops is that this always happens -- citizens act like idiots, forcing cops make the tough decisions, and when one goes awry, everybody piles on them instead the one who caused the entire situation in the first place. It makes no sense to me.

[willthenurse]

It's a way of administering a beating that, unlike beating with a baton, leaves no marks. In these cases, the Taser has acted to enable police brutality by providing a means of inflicting pain without leaving evidence.


-Just to clarify, tasers do leave marks, they are "barbs" (metal spiky things) that are shot out of the taser and stab the person, usually 1/2 inch beneath the skin...I've had to remvoe many from patients i get in the ER...

but two small puncture wounds compared to bruises and cuts from a baton...


~Will.

[skippy the wonder dog]

That is not to say that I wish the woman ill, or think that she deserved to die, but threatening an officer of the law has consequences.

Yes, you're right.

The consequences are that you are charged with, to repeat your excessively formal phrase, "threatening an officer of the law."

Then you get your day in what we call "a court of law," where a person called a "judge" determines whether you are guilty of an offence, and if so, your punishment, or "sentence."

You may be shocked to learn this, but "threatening an officer of the law" does not automatically incur one or more Taser shocks as its consequences. The police are supposed to arrest you, not to mete out "consequences." And they are supposed to use reasonable force to do so, which does not automatically justify the use of a Taser.

At least, that's how it works in a free country governed by the rule of law, although given your current domicile, we can forgive your ignorance on that point.

Esthete: nobody suggested that the police intended to kill this woman. We all know that if the police had intended to kill her, they would have shot her with their 9 mms and then planted a throw-down gun on the scene. Of course, you'll probably tell us that cops never do that, just as you apparently think they never breach procedure.

Will: point taken, but all models of Taser don't shoot barbs. Some are used on contact. Those are the type favoured for meting out extrajudicial punishment in the manner favoured by Mistress Jenna.