[bobrockruinedthehip]

Only had time to listen to the album once so far but nothing grabs me yet except for a couple songs, which is a good thing. DFN gave me the same initial reaction. Typically if I hear a song / album for the first time and love it, it burns out pretty fast. If it takes me a dozen listens to finally "get" it, then it continues to grow on me and I keep noticing more and more intricacies, again, like with the songs on DFN.

I thought the exact same thing. DFN took me a long time. As long as I'm not offended on the first few listens, such as WC and WATS, things usually work out for me whether it's the Hip or another band.

[thebends]

Hmmm...got the album tonight and gave it two listens; I don't think I've ever been so angry about an album after the first listen before. I really hated it. But I knew I had to listen to it more, and put on my good headphones, pulled out the liner notes and read the lyrics along with each song. I've warmed up to it a bit, but I still think it's the worst album they have put out in a long time, perhaps ever. I'm really struggling to connect to any of the songs - there are few if any hooks, everything is atmospheric at the expense of the solid, rocking rhythm they are famous for, and the songs are dominated by "drum and bass" style production and arrangement at the expense of the dual guitar sound that makes the band what it is.

There are only three songs that grab me at all, "World Possessed...", "Here, In the Dark" and "Machine", although all three leave something to be desired. When I first heard "Possessed", I didn't care for it much; after a few more listens it grew on me, and I like the song now, but it's dying for an anthemic, massive ending - with Johnny Fay pounding away on his kit, while the rest of the boys rock out - however, it just fizzles out instead. "Here, In the Dark" has a really cool grove, but it seems a little "schizophrenic" to me at times. "Machine" is cool, but again, it could have been epic and settles for something less. It is as though they got caught up trying to be "hip", with lots of weird, random, computer generated sounds and effects, at the expense of solid writing and arranging. There aren't any other songs that speak to me at all, at least at this point in time, unfortunately.

I'm curious to see how they treat these songs live; I think "Possessed" and "Machine" could be epic, but the rest of the album seems to be so dependent on things outside of the band to make them what they are it will be difficult for them to reproduce it in front of an audience. I'm guessing that Kevin Drew and Dave Hamelin had a heavy hand in this, and I really think they should have kept their hands off.

Also, there isn't any remarkable musical performance from the band members, it's just all these little parts thrown together, mixed in with a bunch of sound effects. It's in stark contrast to the band's work with Bob Rock; I've been listening to WATS a lot lately (oddly enough, an album that I didn't fully appreciate when it first came out), and while the complaints about the over-production are merited, Bob got amazing performances from each of the members. Gord's best singing can be found on that album - "Honey, Please" in particular - and Johnny Fay was a beast on the drums, with some great guitar work from Robbie Baker. MMP seems like the exact opposite. There is nothing that excites me performance wise on this album; it feels mundane, and boring. I hope that the rest of the album grows on me like "Possessed" has, but even then, I don't think it stands up very well to the rest of their discography. I remember when I heard "Tired as F..." and hoping that the rest of the album wasn't like those first two singles, however, it seems as though my worst fears have been realized. I hope we get at least one more album after this, so they can hopefully move in a different direction, where the strengths of the band are highlighted, not put in a time-out in the corner.

And if you think I'm pinning for "the good old days" of UPT and Road Apples - and while I certainly love me some good rock tunes - my favourite HIp songs are some of their more "off the beaten path" types..."Dark Canuck" would probably be my #1, "Escape @ Hand" (obviously), "New Maybe", "No Threat" and "Morning Moon" all rank highly for me as well. I just can't help to think that the band has been neutered on this record.

Its good to see a fans honest opinion in a forum like this. I've gone through these songs a few times and now thinking what a remarkable gift we have with this release. I am certain there is no "free pass" going on with music that stimulates and moves me, and in this case there is a lot of that going on. The ending Ocean Next and Machine are on me like a rash. On another note, as mentioned before the Sirus XM track by track interview with Mr Baker was very cool, we inadvertently tuned into it on our way to the City & Colour show last night. Happy to hear him mention there is a "shadow" album that is recorded with every release, and that sometime in the future they may see the light of day.

[Joe]

there is a "shadow" album that is recorded with every release, and that sometime in the future they may see the light of day.

Holy mother of fak. Can anyone elaborate more on what Rob said about this?

[Daryl24]

there is a "shadow" album that is recorded with every release, and that sometime in the future they may see the light of day.

Holy mother of fak. Can anyone elaborate more on what Rob said about this?

Rob actually said that they have done a "few" (i think he said few. maybe the word was "couple") albums where they had sort of a "Shadow" album. like the other half that they don't wanna show. Rob specifically mentioned the Man Machine Peom Shadow album was 8 tracks and he said they were "interesting, but maybe too personal to include on the record".

[direwolf74]

there isn't any remarkable musical performance from the band members, it's just all these little parts thrown together, mixed in with a bunch of sound effects.

Gotta disagree with you there. I think Johnny Fay is the star of the album. It's his drumming that really drives the record, unlike previous albums where he was always somewhat buried in the mix. Dare I say it's his best performance in the studio in a long time. I really dig Gord Sinclair's work as well, particularly on Here in the Dark, Machine, and What Blue. And now that I think about it, there is some really cool and intricate guitar work from Rob and Paul on songs like Dark, In Sarnia, Great Soul, Tired as Fuck, and the epic beast that is Machine. Not to mention Rob's beautiful, understated solos on What Blue, In Sarnia and Machine.

I just can't help to think that the band has been neutered on this record.

Really? For me it's the complete opposite. This is the first album since Music@Work where the band really stretches out their legs and lets their freak flag fly. I would argue that the band was neutered During the Bob Rock era. He clearly wanted to reign the Hip in and give them a high-gloss shine made for radio; to give them more of a pop-rock feel, and for Gord to tone down the weirdness and use his "hotel voice". And for the most part, Rock accomplished what he set out to do, which was to make a big, polished, mainstream rock album. And that's fine. I actually really like World Container. WATS on the other hand is not their finest moment. There's a handful of good songs on that record, but there's also a lot of filler that I rarely revisit (Exact Feeling, LIAF, Struggle Has a Name, Coffee Girl, etc..). I think NFPA was a step back in the right direction, and was my favorite late-period Hip album up to this point. But Man Machine Poem is the album I've been waiting for them to make for 16 years. It's a tight, focused, adventurous collection, and it's hitting all the sweet spots for me in terms of songwriting, melody, performance, and lyrics. Best thing they've done since Phantom Power in my opinion. It kills me to think this might be their last one, because I think it signals a bold new direction for the band. As someone mentioned earlier, this album should be a jumping off point for a whole new era of Hip, similar to what DFN did in the mid-90s.

[Killer Whale Tank]

'Shadow' records...we can only dream about a Hip equivalent of Dylan's 'Bootleg Series' releases. Who knows, maybe it'll come to pass eventually...

It makes me nervous when artists say that given song or album is 'too personal' for public release. Sometimes that means they're withholding their most heartfelt work in favour of maintaining a persona that they feel is expected. Buck 65 once almost left a song about his mother's death off an album for just that reason. After it became a key track in his career, one that won him many new fans, he took his earlier doubts as proof that he'd had his artistic priorities backwards. Hopefully the Hip are not making a similar mistake.

Now then, as for MMP, my two cents. For those who are unenthused about the album, I suspect the root cause is simple: the rampant and extreme use of reverb on Gord's vocals throughout the record. There's nothing wrong at all with these songs, many of which are classic, catchy Hip - the hooks are there, actually - but never has there been a Hip album whose potential hit songs have been so subverted by production (and yes, I'll include Bob Rock's abominations in that statement). 'In Sarnia' is the biggest casualty - a great little Can-pop gem, but the vocals, harsh in the chorus to begin with, are distorted in a way that makes them even harsher, almost so as to resemble one of those 1980s productions that everyone now winces at. It's like they're just throwing away an automatic Hip Anthem. Extreme Reverb would be my alternate title for this album. I don't understand why this was felt to be necessary, except in specific cases ('Man,' for instance, is an art-rock opener well suited to that treatment, and in 'Ocean' the distortion seems to be part of the point, a bit like U2's 'Zoo Station'). It's too bad that the songs have to fight through all the distortion in order to be appreciated for what they are.

But I'll reiterate that AS SONGS these are mostly excellent. 'Possessed,' 'What Blue,' 'In Sarnia,' 'Here in the Dark' (a lost Pursuit of Happiness number!) and 'Machine' would be strong cuts on ANY Hip album. 'Tired' makes a lot more sense on the record than as a single (which I suspected would be the case). I have to give 'Great Soul,' 'Hot Mic' and 'Ocean Next' more listens; they seem awfully prog-rock to me, on initial acquaintance, almost like Rush songs in some aspects. Some will like that, but I mostly hate prog-rock...

If you're like me and think that a lot of these songs are perversely produced, you probably want to hear them live. This might also be the Hip album that will benefit the most from being taken on the road, away from all the reverb - unless they try to be 'faithful' to those effects on stage.

(Final thought, for now: there's a certain poetry in Johnny Fay, who was something of a handicap on record early on, being foregrounded on what stands to be the final Hip album. One thing's for sure, this is without question the Hip record most likely to be sampled in a future hip hop song!!)

[thebends]

This!!

[direwolf74]

Totally agree with the reverb comment. It's probably my only real complaint with the album, especially it's excessive use on In Sarnia. Great post, KWT.

[Escape@Hand]

'Shadow' records...we can only dream about a Hip equivalent of Dylan's 'Bootleg Series' releases. Who knows, maybe it'll come to pass eventually...

It makes me nervous when artists say that given song or album is 'too personal' for public release. Sometimes that means they're withholding their most heartfelt work in favour of maintaining a persona that they feel is expected. Buck 65 once almost left a song about his mother's death off an album for just that reason. After it became a key track in his career, one that won him many new fans, he took his earlier doubts as proof that he'd had his artistic priorities backwards. Hopefully the Hip are not making a similar mistake.

Now then, as for MMP, my two cents. For those who are unenthused about the album, I suspect the root cause is simple: the rampant and extreme use of reverb on Gord's vocals throughout the record. There's nothing wrong at all with these songs, many of which are classic, catchy Hip - the hooks are there, actually - but never has there been a Hip album whose potential hit songs have been so subverted by production (and yes, I'll include Bob Rock's abominations in that statement). 'In Sarnia' is the biggest casualty - a great little Can-pop gem, but the vocals, harsh in the chorus to begin with, are distorted in a way that makes them even harsher, almost so as to resemble one of those 1980s productions that everyone now winces at. It's like they're just throwing away an automatic Hip Anthem. Extreme Reverb would be my alternate title for this album. I don't understand why this was felt to be necessary, except in specific cases ('Man,' for instance, is an art-rock opener well suited to that treatment, and in 'Ocean' the distortion seems to be part of the point, a bit like U2's 'Zoo Station'). It's too bad that the songs have to fight through all the distortion in order to be appreciated for what they are.

But I'll reiterate that AS SONGS these are mostly excellent. 'Possessed,' 'What Blue,' 'In Sarnia,' 'Here in the Dark' (a lost Pursuit of Happiness number!) and 'Machine' would be strong cuts on ANY Hip album. 'Tired' makes a lot more sense on the record than as a single (which I suspected would be the case). I have to give 'Great Soul,' 'Hot Mic' and 'Ocean Next' more listens; they seem awfully prog-rock to me, on initial acquaintance, almost like Rush songs in some aspects. Some will like that, but I mostly hate prog-rock...

If you're like me and think that a lot of these songs are perversely produced, you probably want to hear them live. This might also be the Hip album that will benefit the most from being taken on the road, away from all the reverb - unless they try to be 'faithful' to those effects on stage.

(Final thought, for now: there's a certain poetry in Johnny Fay, who was something of a handicap on record early on, being foregrounded on what stands to be the final Hip album. One thing's for sure, this is without question the Hip record most likely to be sampled in a future hip hop song!!)

You know I just finished listening to it again, and came back to post about the horrible use of reverb on Gord's vocals. I really dislike the whole production of this album, from the reverb to the rampant use of drum editing/triggering. There are a couple of cool vibes, to be sure (Machine stands out in that regard), but I really dislike the overall production of the album. If we are fortunate to have anything else released by the Hip (and I'm not betting on that), I really hope they don't go back to these producers.

I will say I am interested to hear how these songs come across live; I suspect they will be very different.

[bobrockruinedthehip]

It's funny how production makes or breaks an album for people. Obviously, I hated what Rock did. I'll never get past the overproduction, but I am really digging what Drew and Hamelin did here. The reverb doesn't bother me in the least and adds something new that I think completely works.

[Escape@Hand]

there isn't any remarkable musical performance from the band members, it's just all these little parts thrown together, mixed in with a bunch of sound effects.

Gotta disagree with you there. I think Johnny Fay is the star of the album. It's his drumming that really drives the record, unlike previous albums where he was always somewhat buried in the mix. Dare I say it's his best performance in the studio in a long time. I really dig Gord Sinclair's work as well, particularly on Here in the Dark, Machine, and What Blue. And now that I think about it, there is some really cool and intricate guitar work from Rob and Paul on songs like Dark, In Sarnia, Great Soul, Tired as f**k, and the epic beast that is Machine. Not to mention Rob's beautiful, understated solos on What Blue, In Sarnia and Machine.

I just can't help to think that the band has been neutered on this record.

Really? For me it's the complete opposite. This is the first album since Music@Work where the band really stretches out their legs and lets their freak flag fly. I would argue that the band was neutered During the Bob Rock era. He clearly wanted to reign the Hip in and give them a high-gloss shine made for radio; to give them more of a pop-rock feel, and for Gord to tone down the weirdness and use his "hotel voice". And for the most part, Rock accomplished what he set out to do, which was to make a big, polished, mainstream rock album. And that's fine. I actually really like World Container. WATS on the other hand is not their finest moment. There's a handful of good songs on that record, but there's also a lot of filler that I rarely revisit (Exact Feeling, LIAF, Struggle Has a Name, Coffee Girl, etc..). I think NFPA was a step back in the right direction, and was my favorite late-period Hip album up to this point. But Man Machine Poem is the album I've been waiting for them to make for 16 years. It's a tight, focused, adventurous collection, and it's hitting all the sweet spots for me in terms of songwriting, melody, performance, and lyrics. Best thing they've done since Phantom Power in my opinion. It kills me to think this might be their last one, because I think it signals a bold new direction for the band. As someone mentioned earlier, this album should be a jumping off point for a whole new era of Hip, similar to what DFN did in the mid-90s.

DireWolf, have you given WATS a listen to lately? I'd challenge you to compare Johnny's drumming on that album compared to MMP, he does some fantastic work on the former, much more exciting than MMP, and he was clearly pushed during those years working with Rock (as he has mentioned in interviews).

[thechubb44]

Beauty must be in the ear of the beholder . I find wats completely unlistenable. And I have to admit that my mind may really want to love this due to the circumstances. But, 6 of the 10 songs are really good or great. Machine is a great tune. I'm not getting tired of it and I really haven't loved anything they put out for a very long time. Nfpa was okay for a minute. Don smith is dead and gone. I'd love to hear them record another road apples. Dfn is my favorite by far. But this is sort of in this strange sweet spot for the band. Like they dialed back the crap and didn't quite go back to basics. Maybe a phantom power era feel to it. I dig it'.

[sherpa]

I think everyone has been listening to this album for 1 or 2 days at most - maybe give it some time...like 3 days?

[Dev]

Hot Mic is maybe the only song I don't love. And I kind of dislike it.

[tlightle]

I couldn't agree with Dire Wolf more, I feel the album is there best work since Phantom Power.
It's the first one I haven't had to "warm up to" since Day For Night and the first one I won't be skipping over any tracks while listening since Fully Completely.
I think we all wanted to love this release given the circumstances and I initially found it difficult to temper those emotions with a honest evaluation of this work. Personally, I enjoy every aspect of this album. The lyrics, music and production.
It's so good, in fact, I couldn't choose a favourite song or a weakest song if I wanted to.
The material will be smoking live, can't wait.