Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5

Same-Sex Marriage & Polygamy: Why one and not the other?
#1

I always seem to like what this guy says......

Pandora and Polygamy
By Charles Krauthammer
The Wahington Post
Friday, March 17, 2006; Page A19

---

And now, polygamy.

With the sweetly titled HBO series "Big Love," polygamy comes out of the closet. Under the headline "Polygamists, Unite!" Newsweek informs us of "polygamy activists emerging in the wake of the gay-marriage movement." Says one evangelical Christian big lover: "Polygamy rights is the next civil-rights battle."

Polygamy used to be stereotyped as the province of secretive Mormons, primitive Africans and profligate Arabs. With "Big Love" it moves to suburbia as a mere alternative lifestyle.

As Newsweek notes, these stirrings for the mainstreaming of polygamy (or, more accurately, polyamory) have their roots in the increasing legitimization of gay marriage. In an essay 10 years ago, I pointed out that it is utterly logical for polygamy rights to follow gay rights. After all, if traditional marriage is defined as the union of (1) two people of (2) opposite gender, and if, as advocates of gay marriage insist, the gender requirement is nothing but prejudice, exclusion and an arbitrary denial of one's autonomous choices in love, then the first requirement -- the number restriction (two and only two) -- is a similarly arbitrary, discriminatory and indefensible denial of individual choice.

This line of argument makes gay activists furious. I can understand why they do not want to be in the same room as polygamists. But I'm not the one who put them there. Their argument does. Blogger and author Andrew Sullivan, who had the courage to advocate gay marriage at a time when it was considered pretty crazy, has called this the "polygamy diversion," arguing that homosexuality and polygamy are categorically different because polygamy is a mere "activity" while homosexuality is an intrinsic state that "occupies a deeper level of human consciousness."

But this distinction between higher and lower orders of love is precisely what gay rights activists so vigorously protest when the general culture "privileges" (as they say in the English departments) heterosexual unions over homosexual ones. Was "Jules et Jim" (and Jeanne Moreau), the classic Truffaut film involving two dear friends in love with the same woman, about an "activity" or about the most intrinsic of human emotions?

To simplify the logic, take out the complicating factor of gender mixing. Posit a union of, say, three gay women all deeply devoted to each other. On what grounds would gay activists dismiss their union as mere activity rather than authentic love and self-expression? On what grounds do they insist upon the traditional, arbitrary and exclusionary number of two?

What is historically odd is that as gay marriage is gaining acceptance, the resistance to polygamy is much more powerful. Yet until this generation, gay marriage had been sanctioned by no society that we know of, anywhere at any time in history. On the other hand, polygamy was sanctioned, indeed common, in large parts of the world through large swaths of history, most notably the biblical Middle East and through much of the Islamic world.

I'm not one of those who see gay marriage or polygamy as a threat to, or assault on, traditional marriage. The assault came from within. Marriage has needed no help in managing its own long, slow suicide, thank you. Astronomical rates of divorce and of single parenthood (the deliberate creation of fatherless families) existed before there was a single gay marriage or any talk of sanctioning polygamy. The minting of these new forms of marriage is a symptom of our culture's contemporary radical individualism -- as is the decline of traditional marriage -- and not its cause.

As for gay marriage, I've come to a studied ambivalence. I think it is a mistake for society to make this ultimate declaration of indifference between gay and straight life, if only for reasons of pedagogy. On the other hand, I have gay friends and feel the pain of their inability to have the same level of social approbation and confirmation of their relationship with a loved one that I'm not about to go to anyone's barricade to deny them that. It is critical, however, that any such fundamental change in the very definition of marriage be enacted democratically and not (as in the disastrous case of abortion) by judicial fiat.

Call me agnostic. But don't tell me that we can make one radical change in the one-man, one-woman rule and not be open to the claim of others that their reformation be given equal respect.


Solid logic, don't you think?
Reply
#2

Sweet jesus!!

I have enough bother with just the one wife!!

(my fault most of the time, obviously)

D

Still picking up the elderly from the floor, still dealing with the drunks, now wrestling seals and posting it on twitter.. @richardilderton
'Whoops' is not a word the patient wants to hear...apparently
Reply
#3

Very solid logic. It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

Jeff

June 21, 2003 Toronto, ON: SkyDome
July 1, 2004 Toronto, ON: Molson Amphitheatre
November 26, 2004 Toronto, ON: Air Canada Centre
June 24, 2006 Toronto, ON: Historic Fort York
May 10, 2007 Indianapolis, IN: The Vogue
July 14, 2011 Edmonton, AB: Northlands Festival Site
June 30, 2012 Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON: The Commons at Butler's Barracks
January 23, 2013 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
July 28, 2016 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
Reply
#4

The absence of any credible movement pushing for polygamy to be legalized shows this one up as an invalid slippery-slope argument. (As should any title invoking Pandora's box.)

You can argue that the same logic that makes gay marriage legal must also apply to polygamy, but in fact there are logical counterarguments. Notably, polygamy can still be outlawed because the income of the parents must be spread across a potentially larger number of children, which could create a real burden on society. Gay marriage imposes no burden at all, on the other hand. So again, the supposition that one must logically lead to another is shown up as an invalid slippery-slope argument.
Reply
#5

skippy the wonder dog Wrote:Gay marriage imposes no burden [on society] at all, on the other hand.

Who says?

Not that I think it does, but others might argue that point.

It doesn't matter though; his point focuses on the legitimacy of the union(s) themselves (based on the natural right of people to share a recognized commitment of love with one another, not any extenuating or perceived social effects of that union), which, right or wrong, has been the basis upon which gay marriage has gained such increased acceptance in today's society.

Besides, How are you going to tell a Mormon that his marriage to his 3 wives his family of 9 children is somehow less legitimate than that of a Catholic with 9 children but only one wife?

That logic is every bit as flawed.

EDITED a three times because i can't struture a coherent sentence, even afeter editing twice.
Reply
#6

I have to agree on this one. Even not being educated on the topic as much as I might be, marriage is a union of hearts and souls, and isn't something that should be "governed". It ends up in the hands of someones morality to decide what's right?? If two people love each other and are committed to each other I say go for it, gay, straight bi you're call. If you argue for gay marriage on the aforementioned grounds, then I'd have to agree polyamory, or polygamy should be legal if all parties involved are consentual. I realize you can't make a "form" for polygamist wives or husbands to fill out, but some means of engaging consent of all parties. I mean if we are going to make the point one man can have 3 wives, well the reverse should hold true for a woman.

The complications come I believe more from the legal aspects. What big health insurance company wants to make gay marriage or polygamy legal if it's going to go cost them big money. They get support from the ultra conservatives (Right or left - it's not a republican/democrat issue) who feel the "morality" of gay marriage or polygamy because "the bible says so" even if I personaly haven't read the bible from cover to cover. Even bigger if you think about Polygamy and "who gets what" in the case of no will existing.

My opinion is it should be legal

One last thought....nice comment on editing three times..but you might want to try a spell and grammar check on that last sentence lol
Reply
#7

Simply put: I'm a horrible typist. :lol:
Reply
#8

One bad sentence doesn't count as a bad typist...........next time Blame in on the Alcohol it's St. Patty's Day after all Wink
Reply
#9

The Horrible Esthete Wrote:It doesn't matter though; his point focuses on the legitimacy of the union(s) themselves (based on the natural right of people to share a recognized commitment of love with one another, not any extenuating or perceived social effects of that union), which, right or wrong, has been the basis upon which gay marriage has gained such increased acceptance in today's society.

Besides, How are you going to tell a Mormon that his marriage to his 3 wives his family of 9 children is somehow less legitimate than that of a Catholic with 9 children but only one wife?

That logic is every bit as flawed.

Be that as it may, it remains a counterargument. Not only a counterargument, but the counterargument.

The simple fact that the argument for gay marriage focuses on the legitimacy of the unions does not mean that no other considerations could enter into other decisions.
Reply
#10

skippy the wonder dog Wrote:
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:It doesn't matter though; his point focuses on the legitimacy of the union(s) themselves (based on the natural right of people to share a recognized commitment of love with one another, not any extenuating or perceived social effects of that union), which, right or wrong, has been the basis upon which gay marriage has gained such increased acceptance in today's society.

Besides, How are you going to tell a Mormon that his marriage to his 3 wives his family of 9 children is somehow less legitimate than that of a Catholic with 9 children but only one wife?

That logic is every bit as flawed.

Be that as it may, it remains a counterargument. Not only a counterargument, but the counterargument.

The simple fact that the argument for gay marriage focuses on the legitimacy of the unions does not mean that no other considerations could enter into other decisions.

I understand your point, Skippy, but I think Esthete's is that the prevailing attitude in society that has garnered so much support for same-sex marriage leaves the option of polygyny on the table. Yes, other arguments could surface (and certainly will) once this issue has more public attention. The idea is that popular opinion surrounding the issue of marriage does not exclude polygyny as such, though it has not evolved to that point yet.

Jeff

June 21, 2003 Toronto, ON: SkyDome
July 1, 2004 Toronto, ON: Molson Amphitheatre
November 26, 2004 Toronto, ON: Air Canada Centre
June 24, 2006 Toronto, ON: Historic Fort York
May 10, 2007 Indianapolis, IN: The Vogue
July 14, 2011 Edmonton, AB: Northlands Festival Site
June 30, 2012 Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON: The Commons at Butler's Barracks
January 23, 2013 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
July 28, 2016 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
Reply
#11

fingernailsonhull Wrote:
skippy the wonder dog Wrote:
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:It doesn't matter though; his point focuses on the legitimacy of the union(s) themselves (based on the natural right of people to share a recognized commitment of love with one another, not any extenuating or perceived social effects of that union), which, right or wrong, has been the basis upon which gay marriage has gained such increased acceptance in today's society.

Besides, How are you going to tell a Mormon that his marriage to his 3 wives his family of 9 children is somehow less legitimate than that of a Catholic with 9 children but only one wife?

That logic is every bit as flawed.

Be that as it may, it remains a counterargument. Not only a counterargument, but the counterargument.

The simple fact that the argument for gay marriage focuses on the legitimacy of the unions does not mean that no other considerations could enter into other decisions.

I understand your point, Skippy, but I think Esthete's is that the prevailing attitude in society that has garnered so much support for same-sex marriage leaves the option of polygyny on the table. Yes, other arguments could surface (and certainly will) once this issue has more public attention. The idea is that popular opinion surrounding the issue of marriage does not exclude polygyny as such, though it has not evolved to that point yet.

>>I understand your point, Skippy, but I think Esthete's is that the prevailing attitude in society that has garnered so much support for same-sex marriage leaves the option of polygyny on the table.

Just wish to point out that women were considered property in marriage up until about 50 years ago. That prevailing attitudes are considered makes me wonder if they are relevent to the real situations of love and relationship.


"Marriage is a great institution, but I'm not ready for an institution."
~Mae West
Reply
#12

With the high divorce rates these days, imagine what it would be like if a man with 3 wives were to get a divorce. If he was only divorcing one it wouldn't be as bad, but what if he were to divorce all 3? Even with the one, what would happen? Would one wife get the children if she was the predominant caregiver? If he divorced all 3 would he have to pay support to all 3? I think the reasons why it is not commonly accepted is a) Marriage to many symbolyzes monogomy and that is a commitment to one person and b) With the rampant divorce rate, the settlements in a polygamists case would be terribly difficult. Just my late night vodka induced opinion.
Reply
#13

Gov'tMule Wrote:
fingernailsonhull Wrote:
skippy the wonder dog Wrote:
The Horrible Esthete Wrote:It doesn't matter though; his point focuses on the legitimacy of the union(s) themselves (based on the natural right of people to share a recognized commitment of love with one another, not any extenuating or perceived social effects of that union), which, right or wrong, has been the basis upon which gay marriage has gained such increased acceptance in today's society.

Besides, How are you going to tell a Mormon that his marriage to his 3 wives his family of 9 children is somehow less legitimate than that of a Catholic with 9 children but only one wife?

That logic is every bit as flawed.

Be that as it may, it remains a counterargument. Not only a counterargument, but the counterargument.

The simple fact that the argument for gay marriage focuses on the legitimacy of the unions does not mean that no other considerations could enter into other decisions.

I understand your point, Skippy, but I think Esthete's is that the prevailing attitude in society that has garnered so much support for same-sex marriage leaves the option of polygyny on the table.

"On the table" ain't the same thing as "why one and not the other?"

It's on the table, but suggesting that it logically follows from gay marriage is making a slippery slope argument.
Reply
#14

what if i really love my cat?
Reply
#15

fingernailsonhull Wrote:I understand your point, Skippy, but I think Esthete's is that the prevailing attitude in society that has garnered so much support for same-sex marriage leaves the option of polygyny on the table.

Actually, it's Charles Krauthammer's argument, not mine. But I do find it intriguing.

It is a slippery slope argument, as skippy points out, if one is to present it in a way where the logic follows the arguments made in defense of same-sex marriage. But I'm not sure that is exactly what the author is doing here. If you read closely, he's not presenting it as "if 'a' is true than 'b' must also be true" - he's saying that 'a' and 'b' can essentially use the same argument, because they are challenging the concept of 'traditional marriage' with arguments based upon the same principle.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)