Poll: Who should be Canada's next Prime Minister - You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
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Who should be Canada's next Prime Minister
#76

What I dislike most about Harper is his disdain for the Trudeau model of Canada - the unitarist, collectivist/egalitarian, "just society".

The Canada in which I grew up -- as a Quebecois relocated to Ontario -- was a result of this vision of the "just society". Its still part of my vision.

Harper's views diametrically oppose this stance. And the west might want to call Ontarians liberal moonbats for voting red every election, but the truth lies in the fact that the conservatives haven't produced a conservative leader with vision for a long, long, while.

As belief systems radicalize into ideology, polarization occurs. What we need here is moderation.

The conservatives need to make a move to the center. That is where the votes are, and that is where compromises are forged. In practice, however, the conservatives have been growing more extreme recently, and it is unlikely that post-election promises of bipartisanship will quickly reverse historic trends. Us liberal moonbats in Ontario know this! Furthermore, the east's mistrust of the Conservative party is unlikely to be reversed unless and until Harper and his party stage a concerted return to a more moderate center. Indeed, the politics of polarization is the politics of mistrust.

Yes, the liberals have been guilty of polarization, too. Gay marriage as a slap in the face to those evangelical christians buoying up the far right of the conservative party, et al. Well -- let me say a perceived slap in the face, where others might consider it common sense equal rights.

Interesting stuff... Where are all the Red Tories? Show me a fiscally responsible conservative with moderate collectivist views and I would vote for him in a second!

Here's a few reasons from Harper's past, collectively summed up in a Now article illustrating why the conservatives will not get a vote out of me until they have proven that they can put into place an articulate leader with a sound vision based upon the principles laid forth by the forefathers of this country.
  • (1) Has vigorously and actively opposed gay marriage. And would use the Notwithstanding Clause to override the Supreme Court's definition of marriage.

    (2) Has called "vile" any comparison between civil rights and gay rights, and voted against including sexual orientation in hate propaganda laws.

    (3) Originally supported abortion rights for women, but nowadays characterizes himself as "pro-life," but pledged not to change the law.

    (4) The National Citizens Coalition of which Harper was president was originally founded with the aim of killing publicly funded health care altogether.

    (5) Only party leader to oppose electoral finance reform ban on donations from big business and unions.

    (6) Has suggested that Albertans "should build firewalls around Alberta," including replacing RCMP with its own provincial police.

So for all the reasons cited above, and above all Harper's ideology -- nicely summed up in a few anecdotal bites by Now's editors, I will not be voting conservative.

Again, this is my personal opinion. Of course, you can be a true Canadian and also an individualist, an evangelical Christian, a supporter of strong provinces or an admirer of the United States. All power to you -- this is a free country and I will by no means stifle debate by discrediting you.

You just won't be getting my vote.
Reply
#77

Sam Wrote:Sigh. When it comes to Bombardier, I'm afraid my mind is absolutely made up.

Well, just to clear here, I'm not nominating BBD as the Canadian company of the year or anything like that. I'm just pointing out that when looking for an example of a company that picked up shop and went to Mexico to exploit cheap labour, BBD probably isn't the best example given the number of Canadians the company still employs. Maybe in 50 years it will be a different story, but as of today they still employ a small city worth of Canadians.

But I'm sure bean will come up with dozens of examples soon. And then the Hip will play my living room on New Year's Eve, the Leafs will win the Cup in '06, Angelina Jolie will dump Brad Pitt for me, and I'll get a 150% raise.
Reply
#78

cferneyh Wrote:
Sam Wrote:Vote Conservative if you wish - open a shrine to Stephen Harper for all I care - but don't act like people on the other side of the political spectrum are half-wits for disagreeing with you.

I started to get involved in this discussion when someone - not you - said that anyone who chose Harper was "probably retarded". So, in defending a pro-Harper stance I'm treating others like half-wits? Uh, OK.

Sam, I'm not sure what I have said to you to make you think that I find you a half-wit. You clearly aren't. I just don't happen to think that a company that employs 25,000 Canadians is a great example of a company that has abandoned Canada for Mexico. You can question BBD's practices (and as a shareowner with shares solidly in the red, I do all the time), but they haven't exactly picked up shop and left for Mexico.

You can't look at how many employees they have, but how many they have lost.
Reply
#79

cferneyh Wrote:But I'm sure bean will come up with dozens of examples soon. And then the Hip will play my living room on New Year's Eve, the Leafs will win the Cup in '06, Angelina Jolie will dump Brad Pitt for me, and I'll get a 150% raise.

Angelina? Really?

Jeff

June 21, 2003 Toronto, ON: SkyDome
July 1, 2004 Toronto, ON: Molson Amphitheatre
November 26, 2004 Toronto, ON: Air Canada Centre
June 24, 2006 Toronto, ON: Historic Fort York
May 10, 2007 Indianapolis, IN: The Vogue
July 14, 2011 Edmonton, AB: Northlands Festival Site
June 30, 2012 Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON: The Commons at Butler's Barracks
January 23, 2013 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
July 28, 2016 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
Reply
#80

Quote:November 2001: Layoffs of 3,800 workers are announced, most taking place in Montreal.
CBC STORY: Bombardier to lay off 3,800 workers

September 2002: The aerospace division of Bombardier lays off 1,980 people. Most of the layoffs would be in the Montreal and Toronto locations.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cutting 1,980 aerospace jobs

December 2003: Bombardier announces a layoff of 3,000 workers in its aerospace division, most in Montreal and Toronto.
CBC STORY: Bombardier laying off 3,000 workers at aerospace division

March 2004: Bombardier announces it will cut 6,600 jobs from its rail division, most as a result of closing seven plants in Europe over the next two years. About 700 of the jobs cut will be in Canada.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cutting 6,600 European jobs in rail division

May 2004: Bombardier announces 500 job cuts from its aircraft plant in Montreal.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cuts 500 more jobs, posts big loss

October 2004: The aerospace division of Bombardier cuts 2,000 jobs, most of them in the Montreal area.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cuts 2,000 jobs; most in Montreal area

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bombardier/">http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bombardier/</a><!-- m -->

If you do the math, it seems to me that Bombardier has laid-off 11 980 employees in Canada since 2001. That's 39% of their workforce. :roll:
Reply
#81

beanmedic Wrote:
cferneyh Wrote:
Sam Wrote:Vote Conservative if you wish - open a shrine to Stephen Harper for all I care - but don't act like people on the other side of the political spectrum are half-wits for disagreeing with you.

I started to get involved in this discussion when someone - not you - said that anyone who chose Harper was "probably retarded". So, in defending a pro-Harper stance I'm treating others like half-wits? Uh, OK.

Sam, I'm not sure what I have said to you to make you think that I find you a half-wit. You clearly aren't. I just don't happen to think that a company that employs 25,000 Canadians is a great example of a company that has abandoned Canada for Mexico. You can question BBD's practices (and as a shareowner with shares solidly in the red, I do all the time), but they haven't exactly picked up shop and left for Mexico.

You can't look at how many employees they have, but how many they have lost.

So, what's that figure? Don't bother - you and I know you don't know.

Here's a figure for you: 9265.

That's the number of jobs BBD has created since 1992.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?id=0_0&lang=en&file=/en/0_0/0_0_1_7/0_0_1_7_2/0_0_1_7_2_2_24.jsp">http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?id= ... 2_2_24.jsp</a><!-- m -->

Anything else to add, superstar?
Reply
#82

longseason Wrote:The conservatives need to make a move to the center. That is where the votes are, and that is where compromises are forged.

But they won't move to the center, because the right wing of their party wants to be in the driver's seat and refuses to accept that it must moderate to win. I fully expect that if the next leader of the Conservative Party moves the party to the center, its right wing will split off and form a new party.

They'll probably call it "Reform" or something like that.
Reply
#83

cferneyh Wrote:
beanmedic Wrote:
cferneyh Wrote:
Sam Wrote:Vote Conservative if you wish - open a shrine to Stephen Harper for all I care - but don't act like people on the other side of the political spectrum are half-wits for disagreeing with you.

I started to get involved in this discussion when someone - not you - said that anyone who chose Harper was "probably retarded". So, in defending a pro-Harper stance I'm treating others like half-wits? Uh, OK.

Sam, I'm not sure what I have said to you to make you think that I find you a half-wit. You clearly aren't. I just don't happen to think that a company that employs 25,000 Canadians is a great example of a company that has abandoned Canada for Mexico. You can question BBD's practices (and as a shareowner with shares solidly in the red, I do all the time), but they haven't exactly picked up shop and left for Mexico.

You can't look at how many employees they have, but how many they have lost.

So, what's that figure? Don't bother - you and I know you don't know.

Here's a figure for you: 9265.

That's the number of jobs BBD has created since 1992.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?id=0_0&lang=en&file=/en/0_0/0_0_1_7/0_0_1_7_2/0_0_1_7_2_2_24.jsp">http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?id= ... 2_2_24.jsp</a><!-- m -->

Anything else to add, superstar?

stop being a dick <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hipbase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95640#95640">http://www.hipbase.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 5640#95640</a><!-- m -->
Reply
#84

beanmedic Wrote:
Quote:November 2001: Layoffs of 3,800 workers are announced, most taking place in Montreal.
CBC STORY: Bombardier to lay off 3,800 workers

September 2002: The aerospace division of Bombardier lays off 1,980 people. Most of the layoffs would be in the Montreal and Toronto locations.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cutting 1,980 aerospace jobs

December 2003: Bombardier announces a layoff of 3,000 workers in its aerospace division, most in Montreal and Toronto.
CBC STORY: Bombardier laying off 3,000 workers at aerospace division

March 2004: Bombardier announces it will cut 6,600 jobs from its rail division, most as a result of closing seven plants in Europe over the next two years. About 700 of the jobs cut will be in Canada.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cutting 6,600 European jobs in rail division

May 2004: Bombardier announces 500 job cuts from its aircraft plant in Montreal.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cuts 500 more jobs, posts big loss

October 2004: The aerospace division of Bombardier cuts 2,000 jobs, most of them in the Montreal area.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cuts 2,000 jobs; most in Montreal area

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bombardier/">http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bombardier/</a><!-- m -->

If you do the math, it seems to me that Bombardier has laid-off 11 980 employees in Canada since 2001. That's 39% of their workforce. :roll:

11980-9265 = a net loss of 2715.

Oh, now I'm a dick! First retarded, now a dick. Any other gems to add?
Reply
#85

Hey take it to PM you guys -- as entertaining as this is, when we've devolved into name-calling there's not a lot of vaule left in either of your arguments.
Reply
#86

cferneyh Wrote:
beanmedic Wrote:
Quote:November 2001: Layoffs of 3,800 workers are announced, most taking place in Montreal.
CBC STORY: Bombardier to lay off 3,800 workers

September 2002: The aerospace division of Bombardier lays off 1,980 people. Most of the layoffs would be in the Montreal and Toronto locations.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cutting 1,980 aerospace jobs

December 2003: Bombardier announces a layoff of 3,000 workers in its aerospace division, most in Montreal and Toronto.
CBC STORY: Bombardier laying off 3,000 workers at aerospace division

March 2004: Bombardier announces it will cut 6,600 jobs from its rail division, most as a result of closing seven plants in Europe over the next two years. About 700 of the jobs cut will be in Canada.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cutting 6,600 European jobs in rail division

May 2004: Bombardier announces 500 job cuts from its aircraft plant in Montreal.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cuts 500 more jobs, posts big loss

October 2004: The aerospace division of Bombardier cuts 2,000 jobs, most of them in the Montreal area.
CBC STORY: Bombardier cuts 2,000 jobs; most in Montreal area

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bombardier/">http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bombardier/</a><!-- m -->

If you do the math, it seems to me that Bombardier has laid-off 11 980 employees in Canada since 2001. That's 39% of their workforce. :roll:

11980-9265 = a net loss of 2715.

Oh, now I'm a dick! First retarded, now a dick. Any other gems to add?

"Anything else to add, superstar?" is pretty condescending.
Reply
#87

longseason Wrote:Hey take it to PM you guys -- as entertaining as this is, when we've devolved into name-calling there's not a lot of vaule left in either of your arguments.

True enough. Happy holidays to you and your family bean.
Reply
#88

longseason Wrote:The conservatives need to make a move to the center. That is where the votes are, and that is where compromises are forged. In practice, however, the conservatives have been growing more extreme recently, and it is unlikely that post-election promises of bipartisanship will quickly reverse historic trends. Us liberal moonbats in Ontario know this! Furthermore, the east's mistrust of the Conservative party is unlikely to be reversed unless and until Harper and his party stage a concerted return to a more moderate center. Indeed, the politics of polarization is the politics of mistrust.

Here's what I don't understand... why the demands to the Conservatives to move to the center? Why tell the party to abandon most of the principles it stands for and alienate millions of supporters in the process? It seems to me that people who want the Conservatives to move to the centre don't want a real choice in debating the issues of the country, they just want Liberals under a different colour. They want everyone to agree that a liberal, heavily statist (almost socialist) government is therefore not only the ideal, but a given, and then it just becomes a bidding war in terms of which party will spend more of your tax dollars on various plans. Where's the choice to the voters in that scenario? Where is the ability to truly examine and debate the issues? I want political parties to have a clear stand on issues, that way I know where they stand and I can make an informed voting choice. That is the problem with the Liberals today... they have no stand on issues, instead they run furiously to be everything to everyone and try to fool/bribe people to vote for them. As much as I dislike the NDP, and to a lesser extent the Green Party, they have clear stances on issues, and should therefore not change to try and get more votes. Similarly, the Conservative party has clear stands on the issues... you can feel free to agree or disagree with them. But if the Conservatives start acting like the Liberals, then they will lose my vote, along with many others.

And the Conservatives growing more extreme lately? Please! That just isn't borne out by their policies. In fact, Stephen Harper and the Conservatives are seen by many as equivalent to the centrist/more sensible wing of the Democrats in the US. Does that sound extreme? Hardly. And what policy areas are the Conservatives more extreme in? I can't think of any, but I'm sure many people will bring the spectre of SSM into the picture... which if you really think about it, doesn't make sense. Harper said early in the campaign he'd allow a free vote on the issue, something Martin and the Liberals REFUSED TO DO. He also mentioned the possibility changing the definition of marriage to one man and one woman, and using the notwithstanding clause in the Charter if necessary. Paul Martin and the Liberals would have you believe this is a gross violation and abuse of the Charter... but they are LYING. The notwithstanding clause is a viable part of the charter... heck the Liberals under Trudeau put it in their in the first place... and now the Liberals tell you using it amounts to abuse? Pathetic.

For the record, personally I'm ambivalent to their stand on SSM... I didn't see the problem with the Conservatives' original idea to maintain the definition of marriage and to allow civil unions for same-sex couples, but now that SSM is the law of the land I'm not convinced it signals "the end of the world" like some fundamentalists seem to do. However, this is an example of the Conservatives sticking to their principles... and really, once any person or party abandons their principles, then they are lost.
Reply
#89

j-monster Wrote:
longseason Wrote:The conservatives need to make a move to the center. That is where the votes are, and that is where compromises are forged. In practice, however, the conservatives have been growing more extreme recently, and it is unlikely that post-election promises of bipartisanship will quickly reverse historic trends. Us liberal moonbats in Ontario know this! Furthermore, the east's mistrust of the Conservative party is unlikely to be reversed unless and until Harper and his party stage a concerted return to a more moderate center. Indeed, the politics of polarization is the politics of mistrust.

Here's what I don't understand... why the demands to the Conservatives to move to the center? Why tell the party to abandon most of the principles it stands for and alienate millions of supporters in the process? It seems to me that people who want the Conservatives to move to the centre don't want a real choice in debating the issues of the country, they just want Liberals under a different colour. They want everyone to agree that a liberal, heavily statist (almost socialist) government is therefore not only the ideal, but a given, and then it just becomes a bidding war in terms of which party will spend more of your tax dollars on various plans. Where's the choice to the voters in that scenario? Where is the ability to truly examine and debate the issues? I want political parties to have a clear stand on issues, that way I know where they stand and I can make an informed voting choice. That is the problem with the Liberals today... they have no stand on issues, instead they run furiously to be everything to everyone and try to fool/bribe people to vote for them. As much as I dislike the NDP, and to a lesser extent the Green Party, they have clear stances on issues, and should therefore not change to try and get more votes. Similarly, the Conservative party has clear stands on the issues... you can feel free to agree or disagree with them. But if the Conservatives start acting like the Liberals, then they will lose my vote, along with many others.

And the Conservatives growing more extreme lately? Please! That just isn't borne out by their policies. In fact, Stephen Harper and the Conservatives are seen by many as equivalent to the centrist/more sensible wing of the Democrats in the US. Does that sound extreme? Hardly. And what policy areas are the Conservatives more extreme in? I can't think of any, but I'm sure many people will bring the spectre of SSM into the picture... which if you really think about it, doesn't make sense. Harper said early in the campaign he'd allow a free vote on the issue, something Martin and the Liberals REFUSED TO DO. He also mentioned the possibility changing the definition of marriage to one man and one woman, and using the notwithstanding clause in the Charter if necessary. Paul Martin and the Liberals would have you believe this is a gross violation and abuse of the Charter... but they are LYING. The notwithstanding clause is a viable part of the charter... heck the Liberals under Trudeau put it in their in the first place... and now the Liberals tell you using it amounts to abuse? Pathetic.

For the record, personally I'm ambivalent to their stand on SSM... I didn't see the problem with the Conservatives' original idea to maintain the definition of marriage and to allow civil unions for same-sex couples, but now that SSM is the law of the land I'm not convinced it signals "the end of the world" like some fundamentalists seem to do. However, this is an example of the Conservatives sticking to their principles... and really, once any person or party abandons their principles, then they are lost.

Extremely, extremely well said. I was, admittedly, baffled by the suggestion that the Conservatives are getting more extreme, it just doesn't make any sense. Now, I don't think the comments made by Martin's aide are anything to get into a huff about, but it is obvious that certain members of the Liberal Party are extremely statist, believing that many many things are best left in the hands of the government; like the citizens' tax dollars. At any rate, it was just a stupid slip during an election.

To be perfectly honest, I believed that old PC Party to be Liberals with a different name. Remember the days when the Liberals wanted to scrap CUFTA and then NAFTA? Anyway, this will shape up to be an interesting election. Also, I agree that the NDP and Greens have far more political integrity than the Liberals (despite Layton's move to prop up the Liberals whom he later called corrupt).

Jeff

June 21, 2003 Toronto, ON: SkyDome
July 1, 2004 Toronto, ON: Molson Amphitheatre
November 26, 2004 Toronto, ON: Air Canada Centre
June 24, 2006 Toronto, ON: Historic Fort York
May 10, 2007 Indianapolis, IN: The Vogue
July 14, 2011 Edmonton, AB: Northlands Festival Site
June 30, 2012 Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON: The Commons at Butler's Barracks
January 23, 2013 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
July 28, 2016 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
Reply
#90

j-monster Wrote:Here's what I don't understand... why the demands to the Conservatives to move to the center? Why tell the party to abandon most of the principles it stands for and alienate millions of supporters in the process?

[snip]

They want everyone to agree that a liberal, heavily statist (almost socialist) government is therefore not only the ideal, but a given, and then it just becomes a bidding war in terms of which party will spend more of your tax dollars on various plans. Where's the choice to the voters in that scenario? Where is the ability to truly examine and debate the issues?

[snip]

I want political parties to have a clear stand on issues, that way I know where they stand and I can make an informed voting choice. That is the problem with the Liberals today... they have no stand on issues, instead they run furiously to be everything to everyone and try to fool/bribe people to vote for them.

[snip]

And the Conservatives growing more extreme lately? Please! That just isn't borne out by their policies. In fact, Stephen Harper and the Conservatives are seen by many as equivalent to the centrist/more sensible wing of the Democrats in the US. Does that sound extreme?

I'm not demanding anything from the Conservatives; merely stating that if they want to hold power in this country, then they'll have to accept that the majority of Canadians since the Mulroney era seem to think that Canada is somewhat statist, somewhat [gasp!] socialist, and this vision informs their choices.

Why risk alienating some voters? I don't know, to win? A gamble that may win them voters, potential leadership. It would allow them to initiate some of the reforms they've discussed -- many of them sensible and appealing.

Campaign-wise, the conservatives have failed to impress me thus far.

Look at Paul Martin, ramping up his criticism of the US over Kyoto and softwood. He stands in stark contrast to Stephen Haper who has for a long time held an appeasement based perspective to further positive trade relations with the U.S., a policy that has failed to stop trade disputes.

When the conservatives finally perceived that a harder approach would pqiue the interests of voters, Harper yesterday recommended taking a hard-line approach with the U.S. on the softwood lumber dispute.

He properly said there is nothing to negotiate if we had already won the NAFTA appeal -- something that Martin's maintained for a while.

Floppy Mclipperson, er I mean Stephen Harper, meanwhile was also "set the record straight" with the Washington Post because they had published a column suggesting Mr. Harper was pro-Iraq war, anti-Kyoto and socially conservative. Bullshit.

If Paul Martin's fooling me and running around everywhere trying to grab votes, well, I say keep fooling me. I like it.

Banning handguns? Fooled! Harldine approach against the states vis a vis trade and Kyoto! Fooled again! Same sex marriage? Ah you got me again!

Keep running and fooling Paulie!
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