[grooveless touque]

Fella, I hate to tell you, but all that was really redundant. Since many of us do not consider the Bible to have any meaning whatsoever beyond honourable principles about antiquated ideas of an ideal society, the fact that the Bible condemns homosexuality means absolutely nothing.

Second, I think the main reason people resent Christians is that you try and run the world as though everybody else SHOULD believe what you do. Fundemantalists do everything they can to force their will upon others, from forcing schools not to teach evolution to getting prayer everywhere. If you kept to yourselves and believed what you believed in your own homes and churches, we'd all have a much easier time tolerating you.

[skippy the wonder dog]

You could have just written, "because the bible told me so."

That would have been much more honest than all that prating about mental illness, integrity, and supposed evidence that homosexuality is wrong.

[das_hips]

Seriously, to each their own, but if you take your opinion to the bank it won't mean a thing. Neither will mine, nor Grooveless' or Skippy's... the only point I was trying to make is that your beliefs don't belong in congress, or in front of the senate. And as much as you believe your religoius faith is completely symmetrical with the Presidents, it really doesn't matter. How can so few trample on the rights of so many... and before there is response claiming that 'the christian movement' upholds the majority, take a look at the country you live in, apparently an institution of rights and freedom. How can your religion dictate legislation for the other 70% who don't follow your belief... that doesn't really smell like democracy to me... it smells like the perfect recipe for the neglection of other Americans rights, with a hint of ignorance, a dash of hate-crime and a just a pinch of narcissism. For these recipes, and many others, please view <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.GeorgeBushsKitchenRecipes.com..">www.GeorgeBushsKitchenRecipes.com..</a><!-- w -->.

[VioletlightHeron]

Err, I hate to point this out to everyone that every political ideology, be it secular or religious in nature, attempts to insinuate their agenda into the institutions of society and it is hypocritical to claim that only religious ideologues are the only ones attempting to have their agenda and practices become part and parcel of the framework of society. Secular groups like People for the American Way, Sierra Club or Americans United for the Seperation of Church and State are all extremely active in imposing their agenda on America, not just through political activities, but through the courts as well. Let's face the facts here, the people have spoken for this election, and though the Democrats and their liberal allies ran a good campaign and fought hard, they weren't able to convince a majority of the American people to vote for their candidate. There are other avenues they can use to resist with as much political power as they have at their disposal, but they really shouldnt be whining about how the Republicans are going to shift the country rightward in the next four years when they did their damndest to permanently shift the country leftward in the eight years they were in power.

[skippy the wonder dog]

... it is hypocritical to claim that only religious ideologues are the only ones attempting to have their agenda and practices become part and parcel of the framework of society...

No one has made such a claim here. Nor is it hypocritical to suggest that religious ideologues should not attempt to force their principles on others.

We can make important distinctions: the basis of their beliefs, and the nature of the changes they wish to make (or prevent).

[FighterAndLover]

I don't see it as a religious thing. My response was to the question why I see it as a sin, and I would have thought it was obvious that "the bible told me so" so I thought I would give evidence to support that.

But I don't see it as religious, because I feel homosexuality pollutes our country as easily as porn does, and contributes to the downfall of our current society.

While it's true that we are a free country, and porn speaks to it's splintered legions, I don't like the fact that it is allowed.

This is not to say homosexuals in general pollute our society, for there are many good people I believe that have probably watched porn before, too.

It is to say that our morale standards are going down, and America is now symbolic of filth rather than freedom... and yes the majority did vote against gay marriage, so there must be some reason for it. I do not doubt that within the near future that will be repealed, though, considering our society now accepts abortion.

Like violet said though, to each his own, good post VioletLightHeron

[CanuckCourage]

But I don't see it as religious, because I feel homosexuality pollutes our country as easily as porn does, and contributes to the downfall of our current society. .

Ignorance pollutes your country, as well as every other country, and I think a more accurate statement would be "Homosexuality pollutes our country as easily as heterosexuality " After all it's those dirty heterosexuals who create homosexuals.

While it's true that we are a free country, and porn speaks to it's splintered legions, I don't like the fact that it is allowed.

This is not to say homosexuals in general pollute our society, for there are many good people I believe that have probably watched porn before, too.

It is to say that our morale standards are going down, and America is now symbolic of filth rather than freedom... and yes the majority did vote against gay marriage, so there must be some reason for it. I do not doubt that within the near future that will be repealed, though, considering our society now accepts abortion.

Majority of Germans followed Hitler too, concensus means nothing when states and religions can so easily manipulate those committed to faith and patriotism. (add any number of other convictions)

[jen]

Fella, I hate to tell you, but all that was really redundant. Since many of us do not consider the Bible to have any meaning whatsoever beyond honourable principles about antiquated ideas of an ideal society, the fact that the Bible condemns homosexuality means absolutely nothing.

Second, I think the main reason people resent Christians is that you try and run the world as though everybody else SHOULD believe what you do. Fundemantalists do everything they can to force their will upon others, from forcing schools not to teach evolution to getting prayer everywhere. If you kept to yourselves and believed what you believed in your own homes and churches, we'd all have a much easier time tolerating you.

Wow, I could NOT have said it better!! I absolutely despise that fundamentalists push their beliefs onto others. I grew up as a Baptist
so I know first hand of trying to push religion on others. (even though I never did this personally) As I grew older I realized the utmost absurdity of religion and I got away from it as fast as possible.

All I know is that we can all state our case on how gays are just like us only they chose to love someone of the same sex, and that they are not 'immoral', or disgusting or wrong but it wont help in the eyes of Christ believers. Religion is brainwashing, it is a sad but known fact. I know this because my mom remains a baptist and I feel sorry for her because she is apathetic of anything outside of the church. I feel sorry for people that put so much of themselves and what they believe into a story that was written thousands of years ago. It is frustrating really that there are so many people who still base their lives and how they make decisions on a silly book. :?

As an atheist, I feel very frustrated that many of this countries decisions are based on 'god' and religion. It simply is not right, and I hope for the day when religion will no longer be the backbone of America :roll:

[skippy the wonder dog]

As a card-carrying atheist (well, okay, there is no card), I have to say this:

It is not a silly book. It is an important book -- one of the most important books.

[vicariousmartyr]

As a card-carrying atheist (well, okay, there is no card), I have to say this:

It is not a silly book. It is an important book -- one of the most important books.

Go on...

[LastStop]

As a card-carrying atheist (well, okay, there is no card), I have to say this:

It is not a silly book. It is an important book -- one of the most important books.

Obviously, it is important because of the influence it has had on the world. But it is most definitely silly to nonbelievers.

Silly and important are not mutually exclusive.

[grooveless touque]

Wow, I could NOT have said it better!!

All I know is that we can all state our case on how gays are just like us only they chose to love someone of the same sex, and that they are not 'immoral', or disgusting or wrong but it wont help in the eyes of Christ believers.

Thanks. And something in what you said made me realize another argument for equal treatment, in every legal and moral aspect, of homosexuals: do these religious people think somehow that encouraging equal rights will encourage good, normal heteros to become gay or something?! I mean, say for instance there IS a God, and everything the Bible said IS true, and homosexuality IS therefore a sin. What does that really mean? It means the gays will pay for it in the afterlife. It doesn't make the lives of any God-fearing, sin-repenting heterosexual any worse here in this life, nor does it hurt their chances for surfing through the pearly gates in the afterlife.

The fact is, being gay does not hurt society. It doesn't in any way truly affect heterosexual people, religious or not. And it sure doesn't morally corrupt our world - that was done MILLENIA ago. Discriminating against gays and legally preventing their marriages on religiously moral grounds is baseless. There is NO reason to do it, because whether there's a God or not, it doesn't make heterosexual marriages any less important or "sanctified". Your marriage is what it is and a gay couple's marriage is what it is.

In fact, if there WAS a God, I think he'd be pretty darned impressed with heteros for being so tolerant of their human brothers and sisters, and it would be another mark in the "good" column.

(edited to fix errors quoting Jen's bit)

[skippy the wonder dog]

Obviously, it is important because of the influence it has had on the world. But it is most definitely silly to nonbelievers.

Uh, aspects of it may be silly, but it's also one of the defining books of western culture. So unless you believe western culture is silly, you can't really call the bible silly.

Do you think Bob Dylan's music is silly? It's full of biblical references and ideas, and I don't refer simply to his born-again period.

Do you think that literature that makes biblical allusions is silly? East of Eden and The Grapes of Wrath by Steinbeck spring to mind -- East of Eden in particular.

Did you think the movie Man on Fire was silly?

The ideas in the bible are your ideas, whether you want to admit it or not. Are you silly? (I am, but that's not the bible's fault.)

Mythology ain't silly. If you think it is, I suggest reading Joseph Campbell. Our myths define us. Religion is culture, and culture is religion.

[LastStop]

Obviously, it is important because of the influence it has had on the world. But it is most definitely silly to nonbelievers.

Uh, aspects of it may be silly, but it's also one of the defining books of western culture. So unless you believe western culture is silly, you can't really call the bible silly.

Yes, I can. I do believe that many aspects of Western culture are silly. Particularly the ones that have come about as a result of religious beliefs.

I already conceded its importance. Taken by ityself, without considering it's influence throughout history (which is what I was doing), the vast majority of the bible is resoundingly silly.

Just my opinion of course. :thumb:

[skippy the wonder dog]

Care to get specific? Or would that be too much effort?

Lots easier just to assert that it's silly, isn't it? :roll: