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General Election 2006

I can understand how the concept of owning, let alone carrying, a handgun may seem silly, or unnecessary, or even ridiculous to some people.

But to those of you you who feel this way, or are otherwise opposed to the legality of handgun ownership, I guess I'd say that you can be thankful that you don't live or work or have an obligation or responsibility to frequent rough, dangerous neighborhoods. And I don't mean "depressed" neighborhoods, or "sketchy" areas - I mean real, cold, hard, crime infested areas that cops themselves avoid unless they are called to service - where the mere appearance of someone who doesn't "belong" might find themselves a target for violent crime. Or in a remote, desolate area, miles and miles from timely response from law enforcement.

Say what you will, but there simply is no replacement for the level of security and peace of mind that a handgun brings you if you find yourself somplace where help isn't a quick cell phone call away. Thankfully, I've never had a reason to even reach for my handgun out of alarm or fear, but I can tell you that I, as well as others in my company, have been afforded enough assurance knowing that weapon was at hand for trivial things like, i dunno...say....falling asleep at night.

Self-protection is a natural inclination, and a birthright. Thankfully, my country protects that right. And though handguns are often misused and tragedies do occur as a result of their mishandling, the fact remains that handguns will NEVER disappear from society, and most likely, their abuse and mishandling would be exacerbated across the board by prohibition. What's more, those who abuse or mishandle handguns will certainly mishandle whatever weapon they wield in its stead. And there are plenty available.

But by far the greatest tragedy would be to strip my right to own a hangun for my own protection, or someone's right to protect their family, only to leave us helpless while the criminal brandishes that "banned" weapon against us.

I mean seriously - will the banning of handguns do anything to foil the schemes of those evil enough to use them for violent aggression? Is the nutcase that's demented enough randomly murder innocent people going to say "damn - I want to take out this entire hotel lobby, but blast, the only weapon I gat stroll into a pawn shot to buy are shotguns, high-caliber rifles, chainsaws, samauri swords, hunting knives, and compound bows, so I guess I'll just go home and watch Jeopardy?"
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Yeah, I understand your point Esthete. Canadians do not have a constitutional right to bear arms (and I tend to think that's a good thing). However, I think the real problem with Martin's policy is that it will do absolutely nothing to prevent crime. If they confiscate handguns, they will do so using the registry that has been around for years. Who registers their weapons? Law-abiding citizens. This will do nothing to reduce the number of illegal weapons in Canada. This is just smoke up the collective public's ass as election time.

Jeff

June 21, 2003 Toronto, ON: SkyDome
July 1, 2004 Toronto, ON: Molson Amphitheatre
November 26, 2004 Toronto, ON: Air Canada Centre
June 24, 2006 Toronto, ON: Historic Fort York
May 10, 2007 Indianapolis, IN: The Vogue
July 14, 2011 Edmonton, AB: Northlands Festival Site
June 30, 2012 Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON: The Commons at Butler's Barracks
January 23, 2013 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
July 28, 2016 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
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cferneyh Wrote:Shooting a handgun is not a sport. From what I read the ban would be on handguns, not rifles.

Shooting a handgun is a sport. There are numerous competitive pistol shooting events, some of which use specially constructed match pistols. In other words, it's a big enough sport that pistols are made specifically for competition target shooting.

Quite apart from which, the same discipline that goes into competitive shooting applies even if you never enter a competition. The goal can be simply to get a personal best, to which end it matters not one bit if shooting is "not a sport."
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Here are some interesting facts about gun control in Great Britian where guns were banned in 1997.

Quote:Great Britain provides another valuable point of comparison. Despite having firearm laws even more repressive than Canada’s, the violent crime rate has tripled since 1997, when all handguns were banned and confiscated. At the same time, the homicide rate has increased by 28 percent (Dodd, Nicholas, Povey, and Walker, 2005, table 2.04; and Povey, 2005, table 1.01.). British restrictive gun laws have not even reduced gun crime, which has now doubled since 1997 (Povey, 2005, table 2.03).

more here, here and here.

This type of gun control does not lead to a safer society. If it actually passes it will be a huge waste and very likely a step in the wrong direction from what it's intended to do... make Canada safer.
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The Horrible Esthete Wrote:But to those of you you who feel this way, or are otherwise opposed to the legality of handgun ownership, I guess I'd say that you can be thankful that you don't live or work or have an obligation or responsibility to frequent rough, dangerous neighborhoods. And I don't mean "depressed" neighborhoods, or "sketchy" areas - I mean real, cold, hard, crime infested areas that cops themselves avoid unless they are called to service

Well, we don't have to worry about that, Esthete, because we live in Canada.

And I'm not entirely joking when I say that.

First of all, in Canada, you couldn't carry your legally owned handgun in those neighbourhoods, anyway -- not that you could find many. It would be illegal.

Secondly, you wouldn't need to, because Canada is not the United States. Not only are crime rates different, but the types of crimes and the risks people run are different.

Your argument really has nothing to do with the Canadian context. Not many people own firearms in this country for protection -- to put it in perspective, you are far more likely to be permitted to carry a handgun for "protection" in Canada if you are working in a remote area infested with bears than if you are in a city.

Now, as we look at the details, this ban is more or less meaningless.

It will be up to the provinces to decide whether to ban handguns; Ottawa will simply give them the ability to do so.

Target shooters, who own half the handguns in the country, will be exempt. And collectors, quite obviously, can take up target shooting. The only real effect will be to ban the sales of new handguns -- sales which are so slow that it really makes no difference.

So not only is it an ineffective measure, it's a completely empty promise.

In other words, it came out of Paul Martin's mouth.
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skippy the wonder dog Wrote:So not only is it an ineffective measure, it's a completely empty promise.

In other words, it came out of Paul Martin's mouth.

Beautiful burn.

Jeff

June 21, 2003 Toronto, ON: SkyDome
July 1, 2004 Toronto, ON: Molson Amphitheatre
November 26, 2004 Toronto, ON: Air Canada Centre
June 24, 2006 Toronto, ON: Historic Fort York
May 10, 2007 Indianapolis, IN: The Vogue
July 14, 2011 Edmonton, AB: Northlands Festival Site
June 30, 2012 Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON: The Commons at Butler's Barracks
January 23, 2013 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
July 28, 2016 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
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Well, in addition to being reminded that I'm simply too old to spend a night drinking, I've certainly learned something new today. Guess those Liberals haven't earned my vote afterall.
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Anonymous Confessions of a Campaign Canvasser:

December 6, Hintonburg:

We began the day with a brief bit of stretching. Richard expects to clock more KM’s over this extended election period than any other candidate, and so staying limber is essential. This is especially relevant given our major discovery of the day: most dogs remain undecided. The large and loud variety of pooch seem not even willing to hear us out, but the little fluffers are much easier to sway with a bit of baby talk and a scratch under the chin. Coincidentally, I think that’s how Mackenzie-King brought Woodsworth aboard in 1924.

Overheard Campaign Question Of The Day That The Media Won’t Ask: “Mr. Mahoney; if elected: how would you stretch your quads?”

Bonus question:

“Mr. Mahoney, is this the coolest wood-pecker shaped door knocker you’ve ever seen?”

December 7, Meadowlands Ave:

We noticed today that Richard often sings between houses… but no, he won’t do “When Irish Eyes Are Smiling” upon request… well, maybe if Brian showed up. His Neil Young impression is pretty good, but a drive down Bank Street revealed that his Axl Rose wasn’t quite as strong. If there was ever a man ready for Parliament it’s the guy who can tell you how to improve the immense social good already being done in Hintonburg in between bursts of “Hey hey, my my, rock and roll will never die.”

Overheard Campaign Question Of The Day That The Media Won’t Ask: “Mr. Mahoney, if elected, how would you remove that traffic cone from this massive 50ft Spruce?” To be honest, we were all far more interested in how it got up there in the first place.

December 8, Island Park Drive:

House parties love our candidate, and our candidate loves house parties. Everybody seems to want to shake hands and offer him some pie and coffee. There is however a bit of growing displeasure that these hosts and hostesses don't have enough slices for all of us hard working canvassers. So, if I may make a plea to the fine folks of Ottawa-Centre, if you’re throwing a Christmas party sometime soon, planning ahead for surplus slices of pie would be greatly appreciated. We also discovered today that Richard is the George Chuvalo of door to door canvassing in the winter: he won't go down. A few icy patches have come close to flooring him, and he once nearly pulled a triple-summersaulting-full-gainer coming off an uneven step, but he's remained reliably up right. Mother Nature vs. Richard Mahoney is becoming a blow out... but we feel she may have more in store for us in the coming rounds.

Overheard Campaign Question Of The Day That The Media Won’t Ask: “Mr. Mahoney, what is your favourite type of pie?”
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sherpahigh Wrote:Here are some interesting facts about gun control in Great Britian where guns were banned in 1997.

Quote:Great Britain provides another valuable point of comparison. Despite having firearm laws even more repressive than Canada’s, the violent crime rate has tripled since 1997, when all handguns were banned and confiscated. At the same time, the homicide rate has increased by 28 percent (Dodd, Nicholas, Povey, and Walker, 2005, table 2.04; and Povey, 2005, table 1.01.). British restrictive gun laws have not even reduced gun crime, which has now doubled since 1997 (Povey, 2005, table 2.03).

more here, here and here.

This type of gun control does not lead to a safer society. If it actually passes it will be a huge waste and very likely a step in the wrong direction from what it's intended to do... make Canada safer.

It's awesome when people quote blatantly biased organizations to support their argument. YES!

When supporting an argument try to use info that is peer-reviewed/based on the scientific method
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From which peer-reviewed journal was the idea that people who favour Stephen Harper are "retarded?" Just curious since it's obvious you're all about consistency.

Jeff

June 21, 2003 Toronto, ON: SkyDome
July 1, 2004 Toronto, ON: Molson Amphitheatre
November 26, 2004 Toronto, ON: Air Canada Centre
June 24, 2006 Toronto, ON: Historic Fort York
May 10, 2007 Indianapolis, IN: The Vogue
July 14, 2011 Edmonton, AB: Northlands Festival Site
June 30, 2012 Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON: The Commons at Butler's Barracks
January 23, 2013 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
July 28, 2016 Edmonton, AB: Rexall Place
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fingernailsonhull Wrote:From which peer-reviewed journal was the idea that people who favour Stephen Harper are "retarded?" Just curious since it's obvious you're all about consistency.

Ouch... serious burn! :twisted:

Should be interesting to see how (or even if) bean responds to that.
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fingernailsonhull Wrote:From which peer-reviewed journal was the idea that people who favour Stephen Harper are "retarded?" Just curious since it's obvious you're all about consistency.

:thumb:
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The Horrible Esthete Wrote:I can understand how the concept of owning, let alone carrying, a handgun may seem silly, or unnecessary, or even ridiculous to some people.

You're right... that does seem silly to me. Perhaps it is the environment, the accessibility, or the 'right' to own a gun, but comparing Canada's capital, Ottawa-Gatineau (population 1,200,000) and the US captial, Washington D.C. (population 600,000) to the murder per capita ratio (Ottawa:1.1/100,000, Washington: 43/100,000), it seems quite clear there is a discrepancy, especially when taken in the fact that Canada has more guns per capita than the US. But I don't really see any reason to have to carry a gun with me. In fact, I've never held a gun, seen a gun, or heard of a gun within my social community...

...and while the there were 172 gun-related homicides in Canada in 2004, 30% of these homicides were committed with guns that could be confirmed registered (11% including unrecovered guns). Why is this even an issue? Take away the guns. Joe Sharpshoot can still play his game, and Dick Deerskin can still go hunting, but what is the point of leaving 400,000 registered handguns (7,000,000 firearms in total) in the hands of the public with no feasible purpose?

Idol, dormant and unused handguns just beg for theft and misuse, and reek of flagrant inneccessity.

And maybe its just the Liberal spirit inside of me, but why does anybody, including the public and media, even listen to Stephen Harpers proposals. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no way the Conservatives are going to win a minority Government, let alone a majority Government (Fridays Ottawa Citizen Poll puts the Liberals at 40%, the Conservatives at 28% and the NDP at 18%). There is no way, even under the circumstances that the Conservatives win a minority government, that any of his bills will pass. The Liberals and NDP share values that are quite contradictory to those of the Conservatives. Even the Bloc, while campaigning against Canada in general, shares more values with the Liberals and the NDP than the Conservatives. For any of Stephen Harper's promises to actually surface, he'll need a majority government.

And damn if that Green Party isn't full of half decent ideas. They propose lowering the GST on some goods, but raising it on junk food... not a bad idea if you ask me...
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das_hips Wrote:You're right... that does seem silly to me. Perhaps it is the environment, the accessibility, or the 'right' to own a gun, but comparing Canada's capital, Ottawa-Gatineau (population 1,200,000) and the US captial, Washington D.C. (population 600,000) to the murder per capita ratio (Ottawa:1.1/100,000, Washington: 43/100,000), it seems quite clear there is a discrepancy, especially when taken in the fact that Canada has more guns per capita than the US. But I don't really see any reason to have to carry a gun with me. In fact, I've never held a gun, seen a gun, or heard of a gun within my social community...

...and while the there were 172 gun-related homicides in Canada in 2004, 30% of these homicides were committed with guns that could be confirmed registered (11% including unrecovered guns). Why is this even an issue? Take away the guns. Joe Sharpshoot can still play his game, and Dick Deerskin can still go hunting, but what is the point of leaving 400,000 registered handguns (7,000,000 firearms in total) in the hands of the public with no feasible purpose?

Idol, dormant and unused handguns just beg for theft and misuse, and reek of flagrant inneccessity.

I suppose the most ironic thing about your last statement is that eight out of ten cops never fire their guns in the line of duty, other than on the firing range. Would this imply that cops should be without guns because they are mostly idol, dormant and unused? Clearly not, so why should the law abiding, rule following citizen who wants a gun to protect their house be denied? Registration of guns for law enforcement reasons, along with other restrictions on gun dealers to deter the bad apples in the bunch from dealing guns to felons are highly useful tools to crack down on gun violence, as is safety training requirements before being able to own a gun. An outright ban makes little sense at all and will only give advantage to felons who know ways around the rules and have incentive to do so.
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VioletlightHeron Wrote:
das_hips Wrote:You're right... that does seem silly to me. Perhaps it is the environment, the accessibility, or the 'right' to own a gun, but comparing Canada's capital, Ottawa-Gatineau (population 1,200,000) and the US captial, Washington D.C. (population 600,000) to the murder per capita ratio (Ottawa:1.1/100,000, Washington: 43/100,000), it seems quite clear there is a discrepancy, especially when taken in the fact that Canada has more guns per capita than the US. But I don't really see any reason to have to carry a gun with me. In fact, I've never held a gun, seen a gun, or heard of a gun within my social community...

...and while the there were 172 gun-related homicides in Canada in 2004, 30% of these homicides were committed with guns that could be confirmed registered (11% including unrecovered guns). Why is this even an issue? Take away the guns. Joe Sharpshoot can still play his game, and Dick Deerskin can still go hunting, but what is the point of leaving 400,000 registered handguns (7,000,000 firearms in total) in the hands of the public with no feasible purpose?

Idol, dormant and unused handguns just beg for theft and misuse, and reek of flagrant inneccessity.

I suppose the most ironic thing about your last statement is that eight out of ten cops never fire their guns in the line of duty, other than on the firing range. Would this imply that cops should be without guns because they are mostly idol, dormant and unused? Clearly not, so why should the law abiding, rule following citizen who wants a gun to protect their house be denied? Registration of guns for law enforcement reasons, along with other restrictions on gun dealers to deter the bad apples in the bunch from dealing guns to felons are highly useful tools to crack down on gun violence, as is safety training requirements before being able to own a gun. An outright ban makes little sense at all and will only give advantage to felons who know ways around the rules and have incentive to do so.

because that culture of fear only leads to confrontation... if every homeowner owns a gun to protect their house, there is bound to be some that like to flex their muscle, feel invincible, and test the limits of their metallic strength

thankfully, i dont ever feel like i need a gun to protect my home.. in fact, i dont even lock my door.. if i had a gun, i sure as hell wouldnt use it even if someone did break in.. i'm not going to become a murderer just because they intrude on my precious private property.. i guess i'm a pacifist
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