cferneyh Wrote:das_hips Wrote:This year, however, Daniel Alfredsson is making $4.76 million.
Correct. However, that isn't the issue that we are debating. You suggested that he took less to stay in Ottawa. I pointed out that the contract he signed (which, when averaged out, equaled $6.5 million per season) was the going rate for what he had done to that point in his career. In fact, he acknowledged it when he himself said that had he known he'd be putting up the numbers he is now, he likely wouldn't have signed a 5 year deal.
I truthfully appreciate the credence you give to the article in the Ottawa Sun that also included such mention of his light-hearted chuckle at re-negotiating his contract, and the state of the Canadian dollar. The same paper, three years earlier, had a quote that read something like "I'm happy to sign a contract that will keep me in Ottawa the rest of my career", or
Eugene Melnyck Wrote:"I am pleased that Daniel has determined to be a Senator for life.''
. So perhaps that was intention, or perhaps a mis-read by his agent, or perhaps he signed a lucrative deal to stay in Ottawa for eight seasons. Certainly, if taken at face value, the above comment would indicate that he deems himself more valuable than his current contract provides (which I argue he his), but at the same time, his level of play in the last 12 months shows little sign of wane, contractual disappointment, or anything less than complete team loyalty while demonstrating a desire for his team to succeed. You can argue what you want, but payroll aside, I was initially arguing that he is a phenominal captain. I brought the pay-roll issue into the arguement as evidence that he signed a lengthy contract while he may have received more elsewhere. If you disagree with that, that is fine with me. Playing for a team like Ottawa offers more than financial retribution; I think a lot of players understand that, and a lot of Senator's fans are waiting to see what becomes of Wade Redden and Andrej Meszaros in the following months, after the "Home-town", and "Stanley-Cup" discount was brought to the media by Mr. Melnyck.
das_hips Wrote:Not really. You mentioned the man himself, and while he did wonderful things for this team, it is no secret that Jacques Martin played a more defensively sound game. You eluded to that yourself. And while Heatley's numbers have improved, and Spezza came to be a predominant forward in the leauge, you just argued that Alfredsson's success was based on the talent that surrounded him in Havlat, and Hossa. I'm not sure how you can argue both sides.
cferneyh Wrote:Arguing both sides? Hardly. Spezza and Heatley are better than Hossa and Havlat, but all four are great players. And Iginla, nor Sundin, have had anyone like those four as linemates (or even teammates). Particularly at the point of their respective careers that they were all at. I suppose you could suggest that Mogilny was just as talented, but he was largely injured during his time in Toronto (with the exception of 02/03) and by that point of his career he was 34. That's a tad different from having a 25 year old Marian Hossa.
And while you can argue that Alfie didn't have those guys on his lines in regular shifts, the fact of the matter is that having that kind of depth means that other teams can't focus their defensive specialists or their best d-men on one line (like they can - and have always done - with Sundin, and Iginla).
I'm not sure I follow. You initially provided that Jacques Martin had an impedance on the teams offensive abilities while Alfredsson played on the same team as Hossa, and Havlat. Disregarding that they rarely played on the same line, your argument then became that Alfredsson has benefitted from the emergence of Spezza and Heatley, while that
cferneyh Wrote:the Sens firing Jacques Martin (and dropping Martin's "defense first" approach)
has had impact. After which, you simply ignored that and claimed that Heatley and Spezza were better players than Havlat and Hossa. You argued that Alfredsson's numbers were better since the departure of Martin because the team no longer employed a defense-first approach, and then eliminated that as rationality.
Regarding the notion that Ottawa has had superior offensive depth than that of a Calgary, or Toronto, or whoever, I won't disagree. At the same time, an opponents strongest defensive, or most offensively compatible lines are generally used against these lines. When a third line (I think they call it an 'energy' line these days) scores a goal, it is against an opponents third line. To assert that when Alfredsson has scored, or done well against an opponent is done against a somewhat inferior line is probably without justification. If Ottawa were to play a low-scoring team, that team would most certainly apply a defensive approach to all elements of the game. When a top line, or a second line is on the ice, it is either matched by equal offensive talent, or a line consisting of defensive forwards (see Stanley Cup Finals, 2007).
das_hips Wrote:Is it beyond comprehension that an NHL player would take a financially sound contract (5-8 years at that. How many players did the same that year, or have done so since?)
cferneyh Wrote:Brad Richards
Martin St. Louis
Chris Pronger
Scott Niedermayer
Joe Thornton
Martin Brodeur
And that's just off the top of my head, and doesn't count the long term deals that guys like Gomez, Drury, and Briere signed this year. Each one of the players I listed above - perhaps with the exception of Brodeur who always seems to sign below market rates - signed deals that were long term and were the going rate at that time, and would in all likelihood would be making more if they signed shorter deals and jumped at UFA status as quickly as they could. I remember scoffing when Niedermayer signed out of the lockout for $6.75 million per. I thought that was way too much. But look at the list of guys making more than him now (if he was playing) - Bryan Frickin McCabe, Kimmo Timonen, Ed Jovanovski, Zdeno Chara. Doesn't that drive home the concept of going market rate for you?!? And, to reiterate the point, Alfie has himself admitted that based on today's market rates, he is underpaid, and he shouldn't have signed that deal, but he did and he'll live by it.
You mentioned players who signed contracts for several years who are being paid more than Alfredsson (with the exception of St. Louis), and whose contracts are generally much shorter than those of Alfredsson's.
das_hips Wrote:His salary aside, I was, in jest, suggesting that Alfredsson was a better captain than Sundin. If you don't agree, that's completely fine.
cferneyh Wrote:Well, of course I don't agree, but that's largely a subjective measure and I'm not going to debate that with you, because it is completely fruitless. What I took issue with was your assertion that he signed for less than the going rate because he wanted to stay in Ottawa. I feel that I've aptly demonstrated that he did not, and I think that you agree when your best comeback to that point is what his salary is this season (which, of course, doesn't factor in the signing bonus, nor the 24% rollback, so it makes the 07/08 number look a lot better than the averaged amout of $6.5 million).
Also, I think it is kind of funny that you think Alfie's deal was all about doing what he could to stay when he structured his deal to get a $7.5 million signing bonus, mere months before the lockout. Seems to me that someone (or someone's agent) was expecting salaries to drop, or plateau, with the new CBA and as such made sure he got as much up front as he could. Funny that.
.
Months before the lockout? Yes, you're correct. Month's before the introduction of the roll-back? Nope.
Daniel Alfredsson is making half of that of Dany Heatley next season. Is Dany Heatley going to be over-paid? Perhaps a bit, yes. Is Daniel Alfredsson going to be underpaid (even at your $6.5 million calculation), definitely.
Amended Coles notes for tth_fan:
das_hips: me think Alfie is a good player, and a good captain
cferneyh: me no agree; me talk like primate...
Leafs Nation? Just take the resume of John Muckler, look it over quickly, and hire the man. I don't know much of Mr. Ferguson's past, but I know he has done bad things to your team. Leaf Nation should have more to be proud of than beating Ottawa in the play-offs, and of that you are entitled to do so. All this criticism of European Captains, and Daniel Alfredsson is the first European Captain to take his team to the Stanley Cup. That must hurt.
