[sonichka11]

Oh good so it's not just me. I'm not sure it's necessarily a coping mechanism though. Maybe it's just Gord being goofy stage persona Gord. I do appreciate those moments where he does take the lyrics seriously though. The antics can get a bit overplayed at times.

[andrew sharpe]

Really disagree with you folks here. The hankies were really the only thing Gord's ever done that I found tiring.

Everything else is all about pantomime and they 100% make the performance for me. If he's puffing a cigar during Scared, I'd bet it was some type of Churchill reference, as the song is about WWII.

Everything is calculated! Don't underestimate the Gordfather!

[sonichka11]

But he does the cigar thing on Grace, Too. Or is that a cigarette :lol:

[chagrinfalls]

Poster gave me two things to think about that had been gnawing at me:

1) gord clearly has a coping mechanism. It is to satirizes the meaningfulness of his lyrics when performed live in concert. Most noticeable for me on (everything) Scared. He usually spends the first half of the song almost mocking himself and the genuineness of the lyrics he wrote (i feel) before giving himself over to it. It is the phenomenon that birthed Screamo Gord, who thankfully has not been present on this tour.

can you elaborate on this?

Sloppily? Probably. Well? I don't know. I'll give it some thought and see if I can come up with something representative and comprehensible, rather than just something reprehensible.

ct

There was a really great article in the Ottawa Citizen a few weeks ago that I thought tackled this phenomenon in Gord's performance & writing. Kate Heartfield wrote:


"[Gord says it] in the quintessential Downie stage manner: in a tone that’s a little facetious,
and self-consciously performative. There is no doubt that Downie is being dead serious, but
he sounds like he’s making fun of himself for having the presumption to say what he means.
He has a way of speaking, and of songwriting, that sounds more cynical as it gets more
sincere...Downie’s brand of self-deprecating irony may not be peculiar to, or universal in,
this country, but we get it. It’s a way of saying baldly what you mean to say while making it
sound like sarcasm. If sarcasm conveys a double meaning, sincere sarcasm doubles that again."


"...That sounds more cynical as it gets more sincere". She has a really interesting take on that double-edged/many-edged sword stuff that Gord does so well. She references "Scared" as well to illustrate this point.Here's the link: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/heartfield-how-the-hip-reinforce-the-canadian-personality">http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/column ... ersonality</a><!-- m --> .

I don't think it's just performative--to me, it seems like an essential aspect of who he is as a person, or maybe as an artist. He just seems constantly aware that his job is to translate what he knows while he knows he sorta knows nothing. He seems very aware that from the right perspective, everything he says & does is pure bullshit. And yet, from the right perspective, what he says & does is also complete, unalloyed truth & intentionality. He seems very aware, even hyper-aware of all those contradictions & impossibilities, & it comes out in everything he does. Not in a bad way, necessarily, either: because isn't the truth really that all those contradictions & impossibilities do exist? He's being honest, even in his sarcastic irony. And all those double meanings & backtracks make his writing incredibly surprising & fresh, as well as honest.

I also wondered if part of this has to do with the way his wife's cancer diagnosis in 2011/2012 (ie "Plan A") impacted his perspective on life, his own life, & his work. There's an amazing video of Gord being interviewed by Wendy Mesley after "Plan A" had just been released, & it's actually a perfect example of how even when he's trying to be ruthlessly honest & sincere, he still uses sarcasm & starts backtracking & undercutting himself &...yeah. It's actually hilarious because he's doing it right from jump in this interview. The first freaking question. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4k57AZ92tM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4k57AZ92tM</a><!-- m -->

In the video, the moment that best illustrates what I'm trying to get at is @ 3:30, when Wendy Mesley has just asked him "Are some of the songs about your experience & your wife's experience with cancer?" He comments--including an immediate, self-deprecating sarcastic comment on his own comment. He repeats the undercut at 5:47.

Again, if I were guessing at origins, I would attribute it to his own educated awareness that his perspective is flawed & limited, as are whatever words he may ever choose to try to say anything. But saying something is what he does, & who he is, so he's determined to keep trying. He seems very conscious of the great gaps between being & words, meaning & truth, reality & livelihood, fame, etc.

Someone needs to ASK Gord about this, because it's essential not just to his performance, but also his writing & seemingly his basic personality. Okay so just go out there, someone, & ask him what's up with this.

[chagrinfalls]

gah, before I got all carried away on the subject of Gord's cynical sincerity, I wanted to say thanks to the OP for the lukewarm review. It's hard to go against the grain, when so many are writing such laudatory reviews, but I appreciate that you wrote a review of YOUR experience, & that your experience was...tepid at best. I think you put it well: "Feel like a spectator not a participant."

I've seen better shows musically from the Hip, but not shows that had a bigger impact on me. I wonder if your review represents the experience of a lot of people who went in the way you did, a sort of "Why not?" when the opportunity presented itself. People who went just to go, to be there for the "event" nature of it. Do you see that as a possibility, that your experience was one of those "You get out of it what you put into it?" I definitely agree that seat location can make a big difference, tho (I wish I knew why!).

[Chris Tanz]

can you elaborate on this?

Sloppily? Probably. Well? I don't know. I'll give it some thought and see if I can come up with something representative and comprehensible, rather than just something reprehensible.

ct

There was a really great article in the Ottawa Citizen a few weeks ago that I thought tackled this phenomenon in Gord's performance & writing. Kate Heartfield wrote:


"[Gord says it] in the quintessential Downie stage manner: in a tone that’s a little facetious,
and self-consciously performative. There is no doubt that Downie is being dead serious, but
he sounds like he’s making fun of himself for having the presumption to say what he means.
He has a way of speaking, and of songwriting, that sounds more cynical as it gets more
sincere...Downie’s brand of self-deprecating irony may not be peculiar to, or universal in,
this country, but we get it. It’s a way of saying baldly what you mean to say while making it
sound like sarcasm. If sarcasm conveys a double meaning, sincere sarcasm doubles that again."


"...That sounds more cynical as it gets more sincere". She has a really interesting take on that double-edged/many-edged sword stuff that Gord does so well. She references "Scared" as well to illustrate this point.Here's the link: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/heartfield-how-the-hip-reinforce-the-canadian-personality">http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/column ... ersonality</a><!-- m --> .

I don't think it's just performative--to me, it seems like an essential aspect of who he is as a person, or maybe as an artist. He just seems constantly aware that his job is to translate what he knows while he knows he sorta knows nothing. He seems very aware that from the right perspective, everything he says & does is pure bullshit. And yet, from the right perspective, what he says & does is also complete, unalloyed truth & intentionality. He seems very aware, even hyper-aware of all those contradictions & impossibilities, & it comes out in everything he does. Not in a bad way, necessarily, either: because isn't the truth really that all those contradictions & impossibilities do exist? He's being honest, even in his sarcastic irony. And all those double meanings & backtracks make his writing incredibly surprising & fresh, as well as honest.

I also wondered if part of this has to do with the way his wife's cancer diagnosis in 2011/2012 (ie "Plan A") impacted his perspective on life, his own life, & his work. There's an amazing video of Gord being interviewed by Wendy Mesley after "Plan A" had just been released, & it's actually a perfect example of how even when he's trying to be ruthlessly honest & sincere, he still uses sarcasm & starts backtracking & undercutting himself &...yeah. It's actually hilarious because he's doing it right from jump in this interview. The first freaking question. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4k57AZ92tM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4k57AZ92tM</a><!-- m -->

In the video, the moment that best illustrates what I'm trying to get at is @ 3:30, when Wendy Mesley has just asked him "Are some of the songs about your experience & your wife's experience with cancer?" He comments--including an immediate, self-deprecating sarcastic comment on his own comment. He repeats the undercut at 5:47.

Again, if I were guessing at origins, I would attribute it to his own educated awareness that his perspective is flawed & limited, as are whatever words he may ever choose to try to say anything. But saying something is what he does, & who he is, so he's determined to keep trying. He seems very conscious of the great gaps between being & words, meaning & truth, reality & livelihood, fame, etc.

Someone needs to ASK Gord about this, because it's essential not just to his performance, but also his writing & seemingly his basic personality. Okay so just go out there, someone, & ask him what's up with this.

I could not have captured my thoughts as well as this. Thank you.

[sonichka11]

gah, before I got all carried away on the subject of Gord's cynical sincerity, I wanted to say thanks to the OP for the lukewarm review. It's hard to go against the grain, when so many are writing such laudatory reviews, but I appreciate that you wrote a review of YOUR experience, & that your experience was...tepid at best. I think you put it well: "Feel like a spectator not a participant."

I've seen better shows musically from the Hip, but not shows that had a bigger impact on me. I wonder if your review represents the experience of a lot of people who went in the way you did, a sort of "Why not?" when the opportunity presented itself. People who went just to go, to be there for the "event" nature of it. Do you see that as a possibility, that your experience was one of those "You get out of it what you put into it?" I definitely agree that seat location can make a big difference, tho (I wish I knew why!).

I would say my experience in Winnipeg was not as great as previous shows too. Partially because of the setlist (we got NFPA as our random album medley) as well as a few other songs I didn't much care for. Also I was at the far end of the arena and had seen them previously much closer so that part totally sucked. There is no way to connect with the band. You can't see their facial expressions etc. It's a totally different show imo. Also I had overhyped it in my head. My uncle was seeing them for the first time and I really wanted the show to be spectacular for his benefit. However, the overall crowd connection and pure bliss of the fans was otherwordly and never to be duplicated. Oddly, the Kingston show has become so much more memorable, even though I wasn't there.

[andrew sharpe]

A lot of really smart stuff about Gord's "sincere sarcasm".

Well said, chagrinfalls. I think it comes out even more in his acting, best example being in the video for Poets. It's sarcasm, but done intentionally with a self-deprecating, humourous slant in order to convey a deeper meaning, which may or not be ironic <and other words that aren't put together as well as you did>.

[youtube]E_RSJ6xuHbE[/youtube]

[chagrinfalls]

A lot of really smart stuff about Gord's "sincere sarcasm".

Well said, chagrinfalls. I think it comes out even more in his acting, best example being in the video for Poets. It's sarcasm, but done intentionally with a self-deprecating, humourous slant in order to convey a deeper meaning, which may or not be ironic <and other words that aren't put together as well as you did>.

[youtube]E_RSJ6xuHbE[/youtube]

GAHHHHHHHHH!!!! His physicality is OFF THE CHARTS, LOL!!! How does he do that? That video makes me laugh & laugh, its hard not to when he works so hard to make himself look like an ass. The sincerity of his insincerity is what gives the man his charm, lol!

You are right, that is a perfect example--the genius version!--of what I'm talking about, & what I thought others were talking about too but hopefully they'll confirm if we're actually all on the same page.

His physicality & how he uses his body deserves a thread that's 8 miles long. I was marvelling at it while watching him in Kingston--I wish I could remember what part of what song it was. The way he can use his body to suggest aspects to the song that are hardly even hinted at by the lyrics or sound, the way he can uncover new meanings in a song with just a gesture or a lean or the slant of his eyebrows, & it all appears so naturally effortless & clever & charming & surprising. I think he would make a great choreographer. I would love LOVE LOVE to see him do a performance with an army of backup dancers doing his moves from the song as he does them. I think it would knock people out.

[mark]

you guys are having this deep, intellectual conversation and i'm sitting here thinking "damn ... he lost a lot of hair!" :lol:

[potsie]

But he does the cigar thing on Grace, Too. Or is that a cigarette :lol:

Gord put his thumb and index finger together and held them to his mouth after the "Could have been the Willie Nelson" line in Bobcaygeon during a Toronto show and the light finally went on for me after all these years. For some reason I always pictured the couple in the song staying up late, drinking wine, while listening to Willie Nelson records. It's so obvious to me now (and I feel a bit slow for being so late to the party on this one), but it took one of his pantomimes to make me realize the true meaning of that line. So he's faux smoking at least three things on stage!

[potsie]

A lot of really smart stuff about Gord's "sincere sarcasm".

Well said, chagrinfalls. I think it comes out even more in his acting, best example being in the video for Poets. It's sarcasm, but done intentionally with a self-deprecating, humourous slant in order to convey a deeper meaning, which may or not be ironic <and other words that aren't put together as well as you did>.

GAHHHHHHHHH!!!! His physicality is OFF THE CHARTS, LOL!!! How does he do that? That video makes me laugh & laugh, its hard not to when he works so hard to make himself look like an ass. The sincerity of his insincerity is what gives the man his charm, lol!

You are right, that is a perfect example--the genius version!--of what I'm talking about, & what I thought others were talking about too but hopefully they'll confirm if we're actually all on the same page.

His physicality & how he uses his body deserves a thread that's 8 miles long. I was marvelling at it while watching him in Kingston--I wish I could remember what part of what song it was. The way he can use his body to suggest aspects to the song that are hardly even hinted at by the lyrics or sound, the way he can uncover new meanings in a song with just a gesture or a lean or the slant of his eyebrows, & it all appears so naturally effortless & clever & charming & surprising. I think he would make a great choreographer. I would love LOVE LOVE to see him do a performance with an army of backup dancers doing his moves from the song as he does them. I think it would knock people out.

Like many great actors, he can say so much with his eyes alone. At various times I've seen him look sinister, possessed, insane, etc., all with just his eyes. For example, I think most people find it more natural to move your head left to right (or right to left) to take in a scene but he often moves his eyes alone side-to-side on stage, and when he does it seems to convey something different. From 1:05 to 1:18 and especially from 3:52 to 4:07 in this video of Pigeon Camera, all you need to watch are his eyes and you will see what I'm blithering on about.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9E6V1xT1Ls[/youtube]

[potsie]

Like many great actors, he can say so much with his eyes alone. At various times I've seen him look sinister, possessed, insane, etc., all with just his eyes. For example, I think most people find it more natural to move your head left to right (or right to left) to take in a scene but he often moves his eyes alone side-to-side on stage, and when he does it seems to convey something different. From 1:05 to 1:18 and especially from 3:52 to 4:07 in this video of Pigeon Camera, all you need to watch are his eyes and you will see what I'm blithering on about.

It would help if I had a working video: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.youtube.com/embed/f9E6V1xT1Ls">https://www.youtube.com/embed/f9E6V1xT1Ls</a><!-- m -->

[direwolf74]

One of my favorite Gord pantomimes is from this 2009 version of Long Time Running from Syracuse. Watch from 0:41 to 0:54, where he picks up the phone, slams it down, has a 2nd thought and picks it up again, and then slams it back down. For some reason I just find it funny as hell.

[youtube]CGjk5-Dk5f0[/youtube]

[sonichka11]

But he does the cigar thing on Grace, Too. Or is that a cigarette :lol:

Gord put his thumb and index finger together and held them to his mouth after the "Could have been the Willie Nelson" line in Bobcaygeon during a Toronto show and the light finally went on for me after all these years. For some reason I always pictured the couple in the song staying up late, drinking wine, while listening to Willie Nelson records. It's so obvious to me now (and I feel a bit slow for being so late to the party on this one), but it took one of his pantomimes to make me realize the true meaning of that line. So he's faux smoking at least three things on stage!

The exact thing happened to me in winnipeg. I was too embarassed to admit it!!! :lol: