[tth_fan]

And where in Gary Bettman's job description does it say "keep NHL teams in Canada"? Do you honestly believe that any of the other owners (Bettman's bosses by the way) really gave a rat's ass about keeping the Nords in Quebec or the Jets in Winnipeg? If anything, they wanted those teams to move to the US to try to drum up more interest in the game south of the border.

You guys seem to think that Bettman acts unilaterally and forces his will on the league. Sorry kids.....it doesn't work that way.

Give me a damn break...you wouldn't be taking that stand if the Toronto Make me Laffs were moved to a U.S. city...

[tigerthelion]

Regarding Jagr, Shanahan seems to think highly of him so that's good enough for me.

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"I don't know what the deal is," Shanahan said. "Guys hit him late, guys hit him high, guys hook his hands.

"He doesn't complain. He just goes out and plays and plays and plays. The referees just seem to have a different set of rules about the way people get to play against him.

"Not since (Slava) Fetisov came over from Russia have I ever seen a star player get ignored by the referees, and I know the reason why they were ignoring him back then."
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Also, this paragraph really had me busting a gut:

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"We don't muzzle our players," NHL vice president Colin Campbell said, when asked if Shanahan would be fined over his remarks that NHL referees don't give Ranger teammate Jaromir Jagr a fair shake. "We're not happy that Brendan Shanahan chose to be critical of our officials but he is, within limits, free to say what he wants.
______________________________________

Sure, players are free to say whatever they want just as the NHL is free to fine them accordingly. A lot of other players have been fined for comments a lot less harsh than Shanahan's comments. Shanahan should be no exception, regardless of whether what he said was warranted or not. It should be a uniform rule that either every player that criticizes the refs gets fined or nobody gets fined.

[cferneyh]

And where in Gary Bettman's job description does it say "keep NHL teams in Canada"? Do you honestly believe that any of the other owners (Bettman's bosses by the way) really gave a rat's ass about keeping the Nords in Quebec or the Jets in Winnipeg? If anything, they wanted those teams to move to the US to try to drum up more interest in the game south of the border.

You guys seem to think that Bettman acts unilaterally and forces his will on the league. Sorry kids.....it doesn't work that way.

:roll:

I never implied he acts unilaterally, but the owners hired him to be their LEADER, and he has done a very poor job of that from day one.

Let's review the highlights of his tenure again:
1) 2 Canadian teams gone
2) 3 Work stoppages, including one cancelled season
3) 4 team bankruptcies
4) Franchise values that pale in comparison to the MLB, NFL, and NBA (Bettman himself still insists that the NHL is still one of the "big 4" pro sports, so its a valid comparison).
5) A terrible TV deal in the United States
6) At least 6 current American teams in markets that are economically unsustainable in the long term, based on attendance figures and local TV ratings.

With the exception of #6, which could be subject to some debate, these are all undeniable FACTS, for which Bettman, as the league's top executive, must be held responsible.

1) Again, tell me where it is in Bettman's mandate to keep teams in Canada.
2) Yeah, and the owners got the salary cap that they wanted, not to mention set league-wide revenues last year and just set an attendance record in January. Revenues up, expenses down......so methinks the owners are pretty pleased with this one.
3) I'm not sure how you can pin bankruptcies that had nothing to do with Bettman, or the NHL, but had everything to do with owners stealing from their teams (Buffalo) or mismanaging their team's finances (Ottawa) on Bettman, but I get the impression you'd blame 9/11 on Bettman if you could.
4) In some cases, true. But surely you don't think the Leafs are valued less than the Memphis Grizzlies or Kansas City Royals, do you?
5) Yup, no dispute there.
6) Yup, no dispute there.

[cferneyh]

And where in Gary Bettman's job description does it say "keep NHL teams in Canada"? Do you honestly believe that any of the other owners (Bettman's bosses by the way) really gave a rat's ass about keeping the Nords in Quebec or the Jets in Winnipeg? If anything, they wanted those teams to move to the US to try to drum up more interest in the game south of the border.

You guys seem to think that Bettman acts unilaterally and forces his will on the league. Sorry kids.....it doesn't work that way.

Give me a damn break...you wouldn't be taking that stand if the Toronto Make me Laffs were moved to a U.S. city...

Uh, first of all, your example would simply never happen. The Leafs are the most valuable franchise in the NHL, so your point is moot. Secondly, why wouldn't I take the stand that it isn't in Bettman's mandate to keep teams in Canada, regardless of what team leaves? IT'S NOT HIS JOB. I simply do not understand why you are having such a difficult time grasping a concept that strikes me as a pretty understandable one.

[Tthip]

Bettman - Serving 15 years today:
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[skippy, remotely]

The Leafs are the most valuable franchise in the NHL....

I take it nobody actually has to point out that this statement effectively sums up what's wrong with the NHL, and pro sports in general.

But I will anyway.

You know, it struck me today: the fuckers have us all duped. They get us to think that if we're true fans, we'll support our teams through thick and thin.

And then they serve up an extra double helping of shit, with sour cream and guacamole, and call it "content." The true fans will remain loyal anyway, right?

[grimes]

1) Again, tell me where it is in Bettman's mandate to keep teams in Canada.
2) Yeah, and the owners got the salary cap that they wanted, not to mention set league-wide revenues last year and just set an attendance record in January. Revenues up, expenses down......so methinks the owners are pretty pleased with this one.
3) I'm not sure how you can pin bankruptcies that had nothing to do with Bettman, or the NHL, but had everything to do with owners stealing from their teams (Buffalo) or mismanaging their team's finances (Ottawa) on Bettman, but I get the impression you'd blame 9/11 on Bettman if you could.
4) In some cases, true. But surely you don't think the Leafs are valued less than the Memphis Grizzlies or Kansas City Royals, do you?
5) Yup, no dispute there.
6) Yup, no dispute there.

Never said it was his mandate to keep teams in Canada, my problem is that he facilitated the move of a team with a loyal fan base, in a hockey mad market (The Jets), to the arizona desert. 10 years later, I don't think anyone can say that move has worked out very well. Yes Bettman got them the cap, but it came a decade too late in my books. Let's not forget he's also the one who got them the previous CBA, the one that resulted in the inflated salaries that were so crippling to the owners that willingly paid them, that they had to cancel a season to make things right. Regarding #4 above, sorry I meant average franchise values. Of course there are certain NHL teams that are worth more than teams in other leagues, but on average, the NHL's are much lower (Most recent average values based on the numbers Forbes puts out: NHL $180M, NBA $353M, MLB $376M).

[grimes]

The Leafs are the most valuable franchise in the NHL....

I take it nobody actually has to point out that this statement effectively sums up what's wrong with the NHL, and pro sports in general.

But I will anyway.

You know, it struck me today: the fuckers have us all duped. They get us to think that if we're true fans, we'll support our teams through thick and thin.

And then they serve up an extra double helping of shit, with sour cream and guacamole, and call it "content." The true fans will remain loyal anyway, right?

Bingo.

As someone who grew up a Leafs fan, this is exactly what I try to reconcile every time I watch them play. I hate what the organization has become, yet I still can't help wanting to see them win.

[tth_fan]

The Leafs are the most valuable franchise in the NHL....

Almost 40 years without a Stanley Cup...they seem pretty worthless to me.... :lol:

[The Darkest Canuck]

ZING!

[thedarkcanuck]

i wonder how it would feel to see my favourite team fail to win a championship in my lifetime

[cferneyh]

Never said it was his mandate to keep teams in Canada, my problem is that he facilitated the move of a team with a loyal fan base, in a hockey mad market (The Jets), to the arizona desert. 10 years later, I don't think anyone can say that move has worked out very well.

This is the thinking that I just don't understand. How did Bettman "facilitate" the move? Bettman didn't own the team. Barry Shenkarow did. Bettman didn't sell the team. Barry Shenkarow did. Bettman didn't pick the highest offer for the franchise. Barry Shenkarow did.

Other than the Jets fans who got screwed over by Barry Shenkarow, who hasn't this worked out for? Shenkarow got $65 million for the team in '96. The guys who bought the team in '96 (Richard Burke and Steven Gluckstern) turned around and sold the Coyotes five years later to Steve Ellman, Jerry Moyes and Gretzky for $127 million (nice 95% return on investment). Forbes pegs the value of the Coyotes at $143 million. If you ask me, it seems that the Coyotes have worked out just fine for whoever has owned them.

And this is one example of exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone along the way has made money. What was Bettman supposed to do? Force Shenkarow to take a lower offer to keep the Jets in Winnipeg? Do you seriously think something like that would have held up in court?

I guess I just find it comical that so many people seem to think that Bettman is some puppet master who pulls all the strings, while the only people to blame when a team leaves a city is the ownership group. The plight of the Penguins is a perfect example. Mario wants the taxpayers to build him a new rink so that he can profit from it...either via increased revenue streams or by increasing the value of the franchise and subsequently selling it. So if the Penguins move, how is it Bettman's fault that government of Pennsylvania doesn't want to line the pockets of Mario Lemieux?

As for the cap coming ten years late, sure, in retrospect that certainly appears to be the case. But two important things to remember: (1) at the time, the deal was widely hailed as a win for the owners. But eventually the agents (and lawyers) figured out how to circumvent it and take advantage of some of the more moronic owners (Alexei Yashin's deal, for example), and (2) the NHLPA was - at that time - easily the strongest union in pro sports because of how long they'd been screwed over by Eagleson.

[tth_fan]

i wonder how it would feel to see my favourite team fail to win a championship in my lifetime

why don't you ask cferneyh?

[ryan93]

I didn't become a real Rangers fan until the 96/97 playoffs...so last spring was actually the first time i've ever seen my team in the playoffs, let along win a Stanley Cup. Before becoming a Rangers fan, i was a Kings fan...no Cups there either

Sidney Crosby is runninga way with the scoring race, 82 points in just 47 games. He's leading the scoring race by 12 points, while playing 6 and 7 games less than the guys behind him. Had he played 53-54 games like the others, he'd be up around 95 points (25 point lead)!

[grimes]

cferneyh he facilitated the Jets move by helping Shenkarow find his buyers. If you think the owners are the only ones to blame you are grossly underestimating Bettman's role. And sure, the Coyotes may be worth $143M today, but they still aren't profitable on an operating basis. Their loss of $6M last year places them 28th in the league in operating income.

And regarding the Penguins, lets not forget that a Canadian had a deal in place to purchase the team for $175M. He withdrew his bid after the league placed restrictions on his ability to move the team if their arena deal feel through, including the possibility that the NHL would take over control of the team rather than allow them to be moved. Why didn't the Jets get that kind of support from Gary's office? And why was it even necessary for the Pens, considering Balsillie repeatedly said he wanted to keep the team in Pittsburgh? Could it be that the thought of losing an American team to Canada was so disturbing to the league, that they would turn away a buyer just to eliminate that possibility, no matter how remote it was?