[hotmetal401]

Screw the Vote actually comes from a voter education campaign that the CBC ran in the last election. I say it more as a statement then a suggestion. Trust, I'll be there with bells on come election day. It's more about the displeasure with the situation than anything else.

Is this vote essentially going to be a huge waste of time and money because we clearly will not see a majority government and quite possibly could be going through this all again very soon? I think so. After billions in spending initives, two (or more) elections, the inquiry, will the voters of Canada actually forgive the government for spending that roughly $70-120 on their behalf without telling them? (I can't remember the exact figure, it's early in the morning, but I believe that's the ballpark on the cost, per taxpayer, of the original sponsership scandal.) No, it'll be a bleak memory that the Liberal party will have a hard time living down.

I just don't see Steven Harper as the alternative. I have no reason to discredit his ability as a Member, and obviously he does good things for his riding or else he wouldn't be sitting in the House. That said, I can't say the same for him being PM. He's a part of an ultra-Conservative base that just doesn't have broad enough appeal to unite right wingers in this country. It's one thing to have religous conservatives on your side, but there are other, more moderate ones, whose votes are lost every election that a Stockwell Day or Steven Harper leads the party. There hast to be a middle ground in that party that can help get access into Ontario, where elections are won and lost, and Harper just isn't it.

My two cents. Civilized political discussion is fun. Hopefully we'll all be gentlepeople enough to keep it above the belt and not attack each other throughout the next six weeks (like the people vying for power will be).

Cheers

Pat

[fingernailsonhull]

Civilized political discussion is fun. Hopefully we'll all be gentlepeople enough to keep it above the belt and not attack each other throughout the next six weeks (like the people vying for power will be).

Agreed. Let's make it a rule. As I suggested earlier, I hate mud-slinging politics (Is there any other kind?, you may ask). I think the Conservatives will do much better for themselves if they highlight some of their excellent policy ideas and do not accuse the Liberals of supporting child pornography.

[j-monster]

Civilized political discussion is fun. Hopefully we'll all be gentlepeople enough to keep it above the belt and not attack each other throughout the next six weeks (like the people vying for power will be).

Agreed. Let's make it a rule. As I suggested earlier, I hate mud-slinging politics (Is there any other kind?, you may ask). I think the Conservatives will do much better for themselves if they highlight some of their excellent policy ideas and do not accuse the Liberals of supporting child pornography.

Ah yes... that was one of the more blatant mistakes in recent campaigns. Here's hoping no one makes any such ludicrous statements this time around.

I promise to do my best to keep the discussion clean and above the belt... it's certainly an excellent suggestion by both of you.

[Stephen Dame]

Agreed. Let's make it a rule. As I suggested earlier, I hate mud-slinging politics (Is there any other kind?, you may ask). I think the Conservatives will do much better for themselves if they highlight some of their excellent policy ideas and do not accuse the Liberals of supporting child pornography.

Ah... one of my responsibilties on the campaign here is collecting the actual mud, now what am I gunna do till' January 16? I bought new friggin' boots and everything...

I'd like to ask what are some of these "excellent policy" ideas you speak of. I see nothing but re-hashed 1998 press releases from the National Citizens Coalition. Tax breaks this, tax break that... are they forgetting which stripe of government brought in the GST and greatly contributed to the elimination of the deficit?

They say surpluses are too big; but military spending, foreign aid and "corporate incentives" need to be drastically increased. Fine, that's ridiculously wrong headed in a classic neo-con way in my books, but if you wanna do all that, you can't cut taxes and balance the books too. Just ask Dubbya.

I see a whole lot of the usual "we're on your side rhetoric" from the Conservatives, but zero in the way of practical and acheivable policy.

Government can have a positive impact on the lives of the population at large... in fact in the history of nation states, its among the few things that ever have. I don't think current Conservative policies have the greater good or long term national interest in mind.

I'm glad to see they've lost the war on social conservatism and have had to become more centrist. Yet the remaining "excellent policies" I've seen are staright out of Failed Reaganomics 101.

I'm grateful that we're in Canada, which means even if they win a minority, they'll have to tailor their policies to progressive parties, probably the seperatists in this case... yipee?

I'd much rather have proven and forward thinking policies than the latest ideological discovery from Harper's crony Tommy Flanagan at the Calgary School.

[blesser]

people tend to forget the situation that the sponsorship scandal occurred in... attempting to promote nationalism before the Quebec referendum


though i cannot condone the actions of those involved, because it was clearly corrupt, i am not convinced that the liberal party or its policy-makers had anothing to do with the misappropriation of funds.. the actual sponsorship program had almost noble aims - promoting nationalism; what more could you ask from your national government in a federalist system?... i think stephen harper knows this... i think thats why stephen harper wants to fling around some rhetoric that claims the liberals are linked to "organized crime", and thats why stephen harper wants to have an election before the gomery report is released so he can still say whatever he wants and paint the liberals how he pleases

canadians should be angry that there is a holiday election... for the sole reason that we could have waited two extra months to receive the findings of the gomery report, so we could see how the liberal party was really involved... was it the party? or was it a few greedy and criminal individuals? stephen harper doesn't want us to find out until after we vote.. but moreover, it is absurd to me that we will be having an election where most voters list the sponsorship scandal as their main issue.. there are far more important issues that the federal government must deal with - the sponsorship scandal is just a lame way for the conservatives to get bad press on the liberal party

stephen harper is a dirty politician... stephen harper looks like a mortician...

if the conservatives win a majority, i'm moving to sweden

[tigerthelion]

Paul Martin was Minister of Finance. How is it possible that he had no knowledge of what was going on??? Isn't the Finance Minister usually responsible for money going in and out of gov't??? Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not that interested in politics but this seems strange to me.

[blesser]

Paul Martin was Minister of Finance. How is it possible that he had no knowledge of what was going on??? Isn't the Finance Minister usually responsible for money going in and out of gov't??? Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not that interested in politics but this seems strange to me.

you are quite correct... but you must realize the size of the federal government's budget... the finance minister doles out cash to different departments as he is told to do, but he or she does is not responsible for keeping of track of what is done with the money once it leaves his or her hands... in any case, the money allocated to the sponsorship program was little more than a drop in an ocean of funds so it would have been impossible to monitor

[skippy the wonder dog]

So far, Harper seems intent on repeating all his mistakes of the spring.

Sooner or later, someone in the miscommunications staff of that party will grasp the fact that the endless Dalek-squawk of "Corruption! Exterminate! Corruption! Exterminate!" is failing to resonate with anyone outside their fellow Daleks, who are not sufficiently numerous to carry the election.

Then they might actually start talking about policy, in specific and concrete ways.

[cferneyh]

if the conservatives win a majority, i'm moving to sweden

:roll:

Who are you? Alec Baldwin? In any case, I'll help you pack.

...but he or she does is not responsible for keeping of track of what is done with the money once it leaves his or her hands...

Uh, yeah he or she is. It's called being the boss.

[blesser]

if the conservatives win a majority, i'm moving to sweden

:roll:

Who are you? Alec Baldwin? In any case, I'll help you pack.

...but he or she does is not responsible for keeping of track of what is done with the money once it leaves his or her hands...

Uh, yeah he or she is. It's called being the boss.

fortunately, thats not how government works... accountability is passed along with the cheque

[VioletlightHeron]

if the conservatives win a majority, i'm moving to sweden

:roll:

Who are you? Alec Baldwin? In any case, I'll help you pack.

...but he or she does is not responsible for keeping of track of what is done with the money once it leaves his or her hands...

Uh, yeah he or she is. It's called being the boss.

fortunately, thats not how government works... accountability is passed along with the cheque

Forgive me for interjecting a little American politics into this debate, but if responsibility is passed with the cheque as you say, then why is George Bush being tarred and feathered by the national press and Democrats with the misspending and corruption by Haliburton subcontractors in Kuwait and Iraq? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, I say. Martin needs to answer why the misappropiation of federal money to ad agencies in Quebec to support federalism isn't part of his responsibility.

[longseason]

Sure, go ahead and interject! Bush and Harper are real close! :lol:

[beanmedic]

stephen harper is a dirty politician... stephen harper looks like a mortician...

Actually he looks like the corpse

[Stephen Dame]

Paul Martin was Minister of Finance. How is it possible that he had no knowledge of what was going on??? Isn't the Finance Minister usually responsible for money going in and out of gov't??? Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not that interested in politics but this seems strange to me.

Martin and Chretien hated each other due to their stances on Meech Lake and the fact that Martin's folks, led by David Herle, called Chretien a "Vendu" at the 1990 Liberal leadership convention. A "vendu," in politically-centric Quebec is like calling somebody an MF'er times a 1000 in English.

Chretien didn't trust Martin and his Meech-like ideas about Quebec, so he kept him out of the loop, sometimes forcibly. The money for the program came from a contingency fund. Martin and Chretien simply okay'd the money going out, they didn't know what happened to it after it left Ottawa.

Gomery found that Chretien's former cheif of staff and his political friends then created a kick back scheme, which it says right on the first page of Gomery's summary; Martin and Chretien knew nothing about. The accused even testified that he told everyone involved that "JC was not to know."

Martin was entirely exonerated by the judge, Chretien was found indirectly responsible because the buck has to stop somewhere, and as he said: "I take responsibility for all the goods and bad that happened during my administration."

[Stephen Dame]

So far, Harper seems intent on repeating all his mistakes of the spring.

Sooner or later, someone in the miscommunications staff of that party will grasp the fact that the endless Dalek-squawk of "Corruption! Exterminate! Corruption! Exterminate!" is failing to resonate with anyone outside their fellow Daleks, who are not sufficiently numerous to carry the election.

Then they might actually start talking about policy, in specific and concrete ways.

Skippy, you gotta come over to the evil side of strategists...

We filthy Liberals are hoping Harper keeps screaming "corruption" since he'll look angry and stand-offish and continue to push an idea that is deader than Diefenbaker with the average voter.

Also, if he goes on with the "third way" for health care bit, it's a blessing since it's so easy to debunk. Private insurance is a panacea as long as it operates alongside a public system. It simply doesn't increase supply. A doctor with 5 patients would then have 3 in the public line and 2 in the private line. Those in the public "queue" would likely be shifted behind the payers.

The only way private insurance works, as was outlined even in the Chaouli Supreme Court decision, is if you have entirely seperate private and public hospitals and doctors. Harper might argue for such a system, but with the CHA and current political reality, it aint happenin' any time soon. Just another policy failure, and as you put it so well, continued: "miscommunication."