[Killer Whale Tank]

Let's remember that neither M@W or IVL were especially well-received by critics or the marketplace (or, incidentally, by me, not that anyone cares). The band itself might be inclined to share the rough consensus that IBE is a 'resurgence' for them and so want to focus on those songs, rather than on the comparative dead weight of the last few years. Plus, they probably feel less obligation to play tracks from relatively unpopular records. A more sympathetic possibility is that they tend to think of those as 'studio' records---certainly, M@W is---that don't translate live as well as the new stuff. But most likely, they just get sick of songs after touring them and naturally want to give them a rest during the next tour. Can't say I blame 'em.

[skippy the wonder dog]

Not only were M@W and IVL not well received, but remarks made in interviews during this tour support the idea that the band wasn't entirely satisfied with them, either. They'll never say that directly, but there have been several comments about having written an album in the studio, and what a mistake that was, and getting back to their old ways of working, etc.

M@W is uneven and band members have admitted as much. IVL is a genuine low point, although the production is partially to blame. And IVL is becoming the least played album, too....

[Chris Tanz]

I'm agreeing with the two previous assessments. IVL does seem to be dwindling from consciousness - not helped by the fact that the only two songs they want to play live off it are momentum-stealing Good Life (let's hear it from the Good Life fans -- come on! throw tomatoes at me) and jangly over-worked under-nourished falling-apart never-that-good-to-begin-with Silver Jet (listen to Gord sing the lyrics in a live show - he can't remember them or they don't make sense to him; he's just spitting out "silver jet, way overhead, silver jet, silver jet, clayoquot sound to cape spear, silver jet, silver jet, I need you and here's why, silver jet, silver jet").

Granted, these were the two singles. Perhaps that's the problem. Why did they write The Dire Wolf, The Dark Canuck, Leave, and, The Darkest One (maybe that was a single too? I forget) and then hide them from people? The Dark Canuck could have been an awesome anthem that would have attracted and reattracted all manner of Hip fans ... and yet: "silver jet, silver jet, I'm a silver jet, way overhead, silver jet, silver jet".

I don't get why they would open concerts with Are You Ready and Use It Up and yet leave The Dire Wolf and The Dark Canuck sitting on the bench.

geez, I'm bitter about something this morning. need a coffee,
CT

[joanie]

The last four songs on IVL are top-of-form-Hip for me, particularly the monumentality of Dire Wolf and Dark Canuck. I can't stand Silver Jet and feel that its play betrays IVL, which is a lot stronger than that song. As for M@W, I feel the same way about MMAW: probably one of the weakest tracks on the album. I think Tiger the Lion was brilliant (though, yes, I understand that's not exactly part of the dogma around here), loved Lake Fever (which, in fairness, still gets played now and then...I think) and am a fan of the others (especially The Bastard) with a couple of exceptions.

Yet these aren't really the public faces of these albums, which is a shame because I think giving these other tracks some exposure would probably lead to a big re-think about where these albums fit in the discography. It's interesting to note that when I share my Hip collection with those coming at it with no biases (i.e. foreigners: mostly Australians and Europeans), the straight-ahead earlier catalogue is never seen to be nearly as interesting as the layers of M@W.

Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm pointing the finger here, but I wish they'd retire the Jet and re-visit both the gems off IVL and the depth of M@W.

[The Horrible Esthete]

Now that we have scores of IBE tour setlists to pour over, we see it wasn't a one-album occurence. IVL was practically abandoned on this tour. Good Life most nights, the occasional Silver Jet, a rare Are You Ready, and I think Dire Wolf popped up a time or two in the early portion of the tour. And that's it. No Darkest One, no All Tore Up, no Dark Canuck!

WHY??? If we are to judge based on setlists, it would appear as though the band does not see the value of its last few albums in a live environment. I hope I'm not alone in feeling that this is completely wrong. In my opinion, M@W and IVL are packed with tunes that were awesome in concert, particularly The Completists, Toronto #4, All Tore Up, Use It Up, The Dark Canuck, and The Dire Wolf. They have built up a pretty large catalogue, and yet they only cull songs for a setlist from a fraction of it. If they even had everything from M@W and IVL in the "pool," as it were, do you know how much more unpredictable the setlist would be? I find this trend to be really disappointing.

Careful now, Brian. There isn't much tolerance for setlist criticism on Hipbase. Such practice will elicit condemnation, since apparently, any personal preferences, suggestions, or musings regarding TTH concert setlists amount to nothing more than a dastardly, shameful sense of 'entitlement'...(or so I've discovered)....

But for what it's worth, I feel your frustration. And to aid in your understanding of this recent phenomenon, I will provide some explanation based on information gleaned from the study of setlists from Hip shows circa the release of IVL to date:

The Setlist Formula, as is currently observed by TTH, includes the following mandatory elements:

- Approximately 7-9 selections from the "New" or promoted album
- Approximately 10-14 selections from the following list of singles & staples:

New Orleans is Sinking
Blow At High Dough
Little Bones
Fully, Completely
Courage
At The Hundredth Meridian
Grace, Too
Nautical Disaster
Ahead By A Century
Springtime In Vienna
Gift Shop
Poets
Something On
Bobcaygeon
Fireworks
My Music @ Work
It's A Good Life If You Don't Weaken

Evidently, there is a Canadian special-interest group that has meted out a list of 'setlist demands' that closely resembles the one seen above. This ensures that each and every Hip-curious music consumer residing north of the 49th Parallel (or within the reach of airwaves carrying radio-friendly Hip singles) who ventures to a TTH concert, regardless of the location of the venue, will hear only the songs he or she has grown familiar with via frequency modulation, and not any of the "filler" that appears on albums alongside these National Treasures.

[joanie]

Well, I can't top that. You've hit the damned nail on the head.

Oh, no just wait :o : I think I already hear the "real fan" police coming to question your credentials. I hope you brought your membership card and two pieces of ID.

[Killer Whale Tank]

Sheesh, what a cranky thread this is turning out to be! hock: Allow me to opt out of the emerging rant and address the original point about IVL:

Skippy is quite right to mention the various hints given in interviews that the band really isn't convinced by either M@W or IVL. But there IS something to be said for dusting off under-appreciated gems from realtively weak albums and revitalizing them live. This is especially true of 'The Dark Canuck,' whose second half---'Metamorphosis'---is as electrifying as any classic Hip tune and ought to kick ass live (I've never heard it, alas).

But one of the things that happens to creative types is that they get embarassed by their failures, and perhaps the air of frustration around those albums leads to the baby being tossed out with the bathwater. My guess would be that in a few years we'll see the Hip occasionally rediscovering obscure tunes from those CDs. Unless, of course, the above-noted 'setlist formula' remains in place.

[The Horrible Esthete]

But one of the things that happens to creative types is that they get embarassed by their failures, and perhaps the air of frustration around those albums leads to the baby being tossed out with the bathwater.

"Failures"?

Huh.

Well, I must say that IBE has 'grown on me' as much as it ever will, and that said, I'll take both M@W & IVL over it any day of the week....

[Killer Whale Tank]

OK, but all I was saying (in support of Skippy) is that Hip themselves seem to view those records as failures, or at least problematic. And I agree with them---to me, the superiority of IBE is as obvious as a brick wall in Parliament---but IVL and M@W have always had a core of defenders, and that's all good.

Ooo! This post makes me officially an 'experienced groupie.' Hmmm... :oops:

[skippy the wonder dog]

Ah, as the author of the "entitlement" remark, perhaps I should point out that there's nothing wrong with personal preferences and suggestions. What I take issue with is people making remarks about how they've sunk thousands of dollars into the band and the band owes them better. That puts a certain ironic overtone on the remark about "real fan" credentials, doesn't it?

Another comment on IVL: there have also been statements that the band felt worn out at the end of that tour, creatively burnt out and uninterested in what they were doing, etc. Then they fired their management ... I think there may have been more going on there than we will ever know about, thus their lack of enthusiasm for the material.

IVL to me always seemed forced or contrived, from the formulaic arena anthem Good Life to Dark Canuck and Dire Wolf, which to me seemed forced efforts to write a quintessential Hip song. The Darkest One is the strongest track with honorable mentions to A Beautiful Thing and Leave. But they left three of the best songs off. I'd love to hear Ultra Mundane, but I don't think I ever will.

[briansmccabe]

Well, for the record, I don't particularly feel entitled to anything. I've been a fan for going on ten years now, I've seen them a decent number of times. I've enjoyed travelling to see them and I have lots of memories associated with their music that I will always treasure. All of that didn't "earn" me a thing, and I understand that.

That said, For as much as I love the Hip's music, if they never released another album or played another concert, I'd manage just fine (and not because I think they're slipping - I think IVL and IBE are possibly their two best albums). Or if they want to continue to release albums and touring, fine too. When I say I am disappointed with their setlists, obviously I mean that in relative terms. When it comes to setlists, concerts, rock and roll, etc - I think they're stale. When it comes to life - i.e., the big picture - I couldn't care less. It's just not important.

[joanie]

Along similar lines, I've never left a concert disappointed: the live experience for me is just a series of unique moments of connectedness that can't be planned or manipulated. One of the reasons I come on here is to get a different take on what people get out of the music and the band and to sharpen my own observations about how the band has changed over time. I think this setlist discussion is empirical: it's about what has actually been the case. The other dimension - whether that's a disappointment, whether we're missing out on something - need not have to do with feeling entitled. I certainly don't: I can't respect an artist who would get up and fulfill some kind of duty to me as a consumer. It's just interesting talk.

[tigerthelion]

IVL has some great work from the Hip. It also has a few clunkers. Hugh Padgham produced it to shit and took away from the band's energy. It is a good record that is horribly produced. It sounds too polished. Having said that, "Good Life" is a great song, "The Darkest One" , "Dire Wolf", "Beautiful Thing", "Use It Up", "Are You Ready", and "Throwing Off Glass" are very good songs. "Leave" is good too. Like I said before, and as Chris Tanz mentioned, "Silver Jet" is just plain bad when played live. Gord can't remember the lyrics and it just seems like such a struggle up on stage that I don't know why Gord and the boys even play the song. It's just alright on the record and just brutal live. It's a different sound for the boys and some people are going to love it while others hate it. That is a good sign in my opinon. I'm sure the Hip could put out "Up to Here 2 or 3" and fans would love it like AC/DC fans love all their records. Change is good, and I respect them for it, even when I don't particularly love the music. I'll stop listening to them if they put out total crap though, like disco or something.

[Moosehead]

These three songs are all good examples of a saddening pattern emerging in The Hip's last two tours (IVL and IBE).

That's what I was thinking when I started this thread

[joshwayy]

The last four songs on IVL are top-of-form-Hip for me,

With these songs and the three left off, I think it would be the balls (that's male for really cool). I've always been a guy who gets "into" the album after the next release. It took two years befor I could stand the song Music @ Work, but now it's such a great live staple. I pray they get The dark Cnuck into the mix, and I'd crap myself if I ever heard Ultramundane live. I think this is a great case of the band actually llistening to the critics and not the fans. IVL took it's lumps, but for me it's as good as IBE (for now at least)