[intothenight]

I am perplexed. . how listening to the cd in this order makes it any better. . someone enlightmen me?

[opiated]

..to me it makes the album flow better...tells a story in a more concise way..try it out!

[The Darkest Canuck]

honestly, i think it sounds better in this order for a few reasons:

-Looking For A Place To Happen is a better opening track IMO

-the tracks seem to be grouped into pairs that go very well together (Looking/Meridian, Wheat Kings/Eldorado, We'll Go/Fully, Locked/Courage, Fifty/Pigeon, Wherewithal/Lionized)

-over all better flow

-Lionized makes a much better closing track to the album IMO, especially the way Gord's vocals trail/echo off at the end of the song, just sounds like a more appropriate ending to the album than the end of Eldorado does IMO

[lord brazle]

honestly, i think it sounds better in this order for a few reasons:

-Looking For A Place To Happen is a better opening track IMO

-the tracks seem to be grouped into pairs that go very well together (Looking/Meridian, Wheat Kings/Eldorado, We'll Go/Fully, Locked/Courage, Fifty/Pigeon, Wherewithal/Lionized)

-over all better flow

-Lionized makes a much better closing track to the album IMO, especially the way Gord's vocals trail/echo off at the end of the song, just sounds like a more appropriate ending to the album than the end of Eldorado does IMO

Yeah, I would have to agree, and it does seem to tell a story, like a journey of sorts.

1. Looking For... = Just that; going somewhere (starts the story)

2. At The 100th... = Hitting the hundredth meridian (setting the scene)

3. Wheat kings = Then being in the prairies (setting the scene again)

4. Eldorado = a lost city of gold people have searched for so could be a dreamed destination like "the story unfolds"

5. We'll Go Too = standing up for what you think is right or something

6. Fully Completely = paying for it

7. Locked In The Trunk... = being jailed of sorts, questioning purpose

8. Courage = strength after the obstacles or the "jailbreak"

9. Fifty-Mission Cap = "cop chase" like the obstacles are still trying to get ya and bring you down but not succeeding, the climax

10. Pigeon Camera = in awe at the survival through the obstacles

11. The Wherewithal = suddenly jumping back in the saddle

12. Lionized = acheiving celebrity status or "telling the story"

Just my take...
Anybody else want to give a crack?
Maybe it's the story of The Hip for their 4th album?

[The Darkest Canuck]

well, here's my take

looking for a place to happen-with its obvious refferences to the discovery of our country, it is definately setting the scene

at the hundredth meridian-is a further exploration of this new land and it's history (of the land itself ("i remember buffalo" i think he's reffering to the animal that the white man killed off rather than the actual place), and of the people who stole that land ("a generation almost dumber than it's parents came crashing through the window")

wheat kings-in the same setting still, i'm not really sure of the connection between this song and meridian, the only one i can see immediately would be the similar setting out in the praries

eldorado-i think this song is leaving the current setting to continue the journey

We'll Go Too-makes sense if eldorado was leaving the setting that the track after it would be "we'll go too"

Fully Completely-he's left somebody behind in order to continue the journey "she said you're gonna miss me, just wait and you'll see, fully, and completley" and then "bring me back in shackles yeah, hang me long out in the sun..." this is the point of no return, there's no turning back he's saying, and there's no way that she could bring him back...

Locked In The Trunk Of A Car-the journey has been long and ardous, and he's stuck travelling onward no matter what now as he's past the point of no return, so he's ina sense become his own prisoner, forced to carry on, almost as if he was "locked in the trunk of a car"

Courage-is just what the song title says, the courage to continue on, no matter how hard it gets, he knows the hardest part of the journet has yet to come

Fifty-Mission Cap-i agree that this would be the clomax of the album, both musically and thematically, he's using Bill Barilko as an example of how these jounies can be dangerous, and how bad things can happen to even the best of us

Pigeon Camera-i think this might be a flashback, or a switch back to the viewpoint of whom ever it is he's left behind on fully completely, "where's my pigeon camera" the pigeon camera being her eyes too see him with from so far away, "by now he could be anywhere", she misses him, "i'm embarassed, i don't endorse that, i didn't want this"

The Wherewithal-this is a stretch, and by far the hardest one i've tried decipher yet, and i think this one is the internal conflict of the main character, being so close to the end, not knowing wether or not he can complete the journey, he's looking back on how far he's already gone, and thinking about if it'd be worth it to continue on and risk his life, or if it would be a slap in his own face to stop where he is, "that's a breathy body of work, set your sights inward for a leaner look", he knows the answer and the truth are within himself

Lionized-he's made the journey, and now he's contacting whomever it was he left behind, telling them that he made it, and that it wasn't impossible, he couldn't draw them a map, but if he had to/wanted to he could trace his steps and find his way back, but it doesn't matter because he's staying where he his


i don't know about all of this though, some of it holds up, but some of it doesn't, just my opion on the new listing in a glance, i'm not really all that sure that it tells a story, as each song has it's own meaning, but one thing i did notice, that makes me think this is the right order, is that there are 6 I Ching symbols, and there's 6 pairs of songs.

[lord brazle]

Hahaha Pretty good though
I'm taking that too, Wookie Monster...

The Wookie Monster...

[Stephen Dame]

well, here's my take

looking for a place to happen-with its obvious refferences to the discovery of our country, it is definately setting the scene

Some amendments if I may... Don't forget this one's allusions to the rape and pillaging of the Natives by the Europeans. It's pretty dark, and does a great job of illustrating the welcoming nature of the Natives, and the arrogance of the Europeans "No, you're not the first to show..." If your "fleeing/journey" thesis needs a starting point, genocide is a good thing to flee from.

at the hundredth meridian-is a further exploration of this new land and it's history (of the land itself ("i remember buffalo" i think he's reffering to the animal that the white man killed off rather than the actual place), and of the people who stole that land ("a generation almost dumber than it's parents came crashing through the window")

Tons of references to settling and Canadain History in this one. "Corduroy Roads" refered to dirt roads carved up by wagon wheels (1860) and a hundred years later the same term was applied to slats of wood layed down over as-yet-to-be-paved roads in developing cities. My grandfather laid cordoroy roads in New Market in the 1950's.

Pigeon Camera-i think this might be a flashback, or a switch back to the viewpoint of whom ever it is he's left behind on fully completely, "where's my pigeon camera" the pigeon camera being her eyes too see him with from so far away, "by now he could be anywhere", she misses him, "i'm embarassed, i don't endorse that, i didn't want this"

Another story within a story really. Based on a story Dave Powell told the boys, and the Pigeon Camera "spy birds" (I kid you not) used during WWII.

[/quote]

[intothenight]

well, here's my take

looking for a place to happen-with its obvious refferences to the discovery of our country, it is definately setting the scene

at the hundredth meridian-is a further exploration of this new land and it's history (of the land itself ("i remember buffalo" i think he's reffering to the animal that the white man killed off rather than the actual place), and of the people who stole that land ("a generation almost dumber than it's parents came crashing through the window")

wheat kings-in the same setting still, i'm not really sure of the connection between this song and meridian, the only one i can see immediately would be the similar setting out in the praries

eldorado-i think this song is leaving the current setting to continue the journey

We'll Go Too-makes sense if eldorado was leaving the setting that the track after it would be "we'll go too"

Fully Completely-he's left somebody behind in order to continue the journey "she said you're gonna miss me, just wait and you'll see, fully, and completley" and then "bring me back in shackles yeah, hang me long out in the sun..." this is the point of no return, there's no turning back he's saying, and there's no way that she could bring him back...

Locked In The Trunk Of A Car-the journey has been long and ardous, and he's stuck travelling onward no matter what now as he's past the point of no return, so he's ina sense become his own prisoner, forced to carry on, almost as if he was "locked in the trunk of a car"

Courage-is just what the song title says, the courage to continue on, no matter how hard it gets, he knows the hardest part of the journet has yet to come

Fifty-Mission Cap-i agree that this would be the clomax of the album, both musically and thematically, he's using Bill Barilko as an example of how these jounies can be dangerous, and how bad things can happen to even the best of us

Pigeon Camera-i think this might be a flashback, or a switch back to the viewpoint of whom ever it is he's left behind on fully completely, "where's my pigeon camera" the pigeon camera being her eyes too see him with from so far away, "by now he could be anywhere", she misses him, "i'm embarassed, i don't endorse that, i didn't want this"

The Wherewithal-this is a stretch, and by far the hardest one i've tried decipher yet, and i think this one is the internal conflict of the main character, being so close to the end, not knowing wether or not he can complete the journey, he's looking back on how far he's already gone, and thinking about if it'd be worth it to continue on and risk his life, or if it would be a slap in his own face to stop where he is, "that's a breathy body of work, set your sights inward for a leaner look", he knows the answer and the truth are within himself

Lionized-he's made the journey, and now he's contacting whomever it was he left behind, telling them that he made it, and that it wasn't impossible, he couldn't draw them a map, but if he had to/wanted to he could trace his steps and find his way back, but it doesn't matter because he's staying where he his


i don't know about all of this though, some of it holds up, but some of it doesn't, just my opion on the new listing in a glance, i'm not really all that sure that it tells a story, as each song has it's own meaning, but one thing i did notice, that makes me think this is the right order, is that there are 6 I Ching symbols, and there's 6 pairs of songs.

I think everyone is looking too far into it. . where your theory loses credibility I find is with Fifty Mission Cap. The song isn't really anymore than what it is. . Gordie thought of a neat idea for a song. . and wrote the song

The only real pair of songs I can see going together is Locked in the trunk of a car. . and Courage. .

Other than that. . I can't see how it tells a story any better. . Fully Completely is nothing but a collection of isolated songs. . this new order doesn't change anything imo.

[The Darkest Canuck]

well, that's your opinion, but obviously looking for a place to happen and meridian are connected because they run in the same order if you go by either listing, which should be a pretty big hint hint wink wink that the alternate track listing is indeed intentional and possibly the correct way to listen to the album, not that there's a right or wrong way...

as i said my analysis was at a glance, but i think some of what i wrote is actually true, also, as i stated, some of it is not, it's just heresay...

[grooveless touque]

I tried this a long time ago with R.E.M.'s Lifes Rich Pageant and never looked back. That album's tracklist is even missing two songs and I think the album is much better without them!

So when I got Fully Completely for the second time (bought it in 93 and didn't like it much...took me years to come back around!) I naturally did the same thing. I mix it up, listening to the CD as it is and as the tracklist says...thematically and musically I like the way they have it set up on the back and I think it would have been a more profound first-time listening experience if they had gone with the "published" track sequence.

Nice to see others are discovering this experience too :mrgreen:

[lord brazle]

well, that's your opinion, but obviously looking for a place to happen and meridian are connected because they run in the same order if you go by either listing, which should be a pretty big hint hint wink wink that the alternate track listing is indeed intentional and possible the correct way to listen to the album, not there's a right or wrong way...

as i said my analysis was at a glance, but i think some of what i wrote is actually true, also, as i stated, some of it is not, it's just heresay...

But on a completely negative note, it could be a flat-out mistake. The designer, Prins or Davis, whichever one it was I'm not sure, could've did the track listing on the back in the CDs former order and it was later changed or maybe they didn't even know the order.. and then when they were finishing the CD for production, "they" (in the broadest sense) just put numbers in front of the songs to try to cover the mistake. But this aside, you'd think "they" would put the tracks in order if they wanted them to be, so I think it's entirely possible that it was intentional. Actually, scratch that. I think it was intentional. Just like the I Ching; some people are saying that they thought that it was a "fancy barcode" or something and it is possible that it is not I Ching, but I doubt very much when packaging and designing a CD, artists throw in totally irrelevant stuff unless it has a reason. Even if there is something irrelevant on a CD booklet, I think they convey something by putting it there. I mean, the more paper and ink that is used, the higher the cost to produce. So I don't think anything is as careless as just "throwing it together" or putting something on it without a purpose. The I Ching and the order of tracks on the back have to have a reason and not something as simple as "decoration" or being a mistake. When a record label does up the cover and stuff, they have people going over the details...

And that's my long-winded conclusion.

[Nick22ca]

Yeah...when does interpretation reach the point where it just becomes blatant nonsense...

[sfissel]

I tried it...for me...it just seemed weird. I'm so used to hearing it the other way. When Courage finishes, I'm all ready for Looking....

Maybe it's better but I can't get used to it.

Steve

[vicariousmartyr]

I know what you mean, after listening both ways several times, I still enjoy the standard play more (courage-eldorado). Im just so accustomed to the flow of it all, its pure magic. Like the sequence from Looking til Locked, such amazing transitions, and Eldorado as the finisher cannot be paralelled.

I most definately do believe that the aforementioned track listing is intentional, and does serve a very artistic purpose. I totally dig what its saying, what its about. I still just enjoy the original listing all the more.

[Ponch]

Very interesting. I believe also that the songs go together better this way.
What an amazing way to look at it.

One thing though. I thought Pigeon Camera was about incest and very gripping emotional look back at it from a grown adults flashbacks and coping with it. Mind you I also think When The Weight Comes Down is about that too, and that She Didn't Know was the result the result of such abuse.

I always seem to have different interpretations of Hip songs though.