[Killer Whale Tank]

Well...I just don't see the analogy between woman and city being particularly effective in the context of those verses. Cities don't stare at their phones, like a poker hand, and people don't cycle after cities. It doesn't make sense.

For a really powerful anthropomorphisation of a city, try this: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNsCf12eyyU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNsCf12eyyU</a><!-- m -->

It just seems to me that 'insomnia' would have made the song much more honest, and more forthrightly powerful. As for the 'CanCon' thing, this feels to me like one of the least meaningful incorporations of a Canadian referent in the Hip's oeuvre. My guess is that Gord liked the pun and left it in place because the album had no other Canadian content. Neither is a fully compelling rationale.

But hey, I don't want to sound totally negative. It remains a strong song regardless - albeit compromised by the weird vocal and unfortunate production. It's true, of course, that repeated listenings make these idiosycracies easier to take, but I'd prefer that the performance 'get out of its own way,' as Gord might say.

[andrew sharpe]

I think some "policing" of the vocal might've benefited the song....

I guess I could do without the back to back to back "biking after you" lines.

[andrew sharpe]

As for the 'CanCon' thing, this feels to me like one of the least meaningful incorporations of a Canadian referent in the Hip's oeuvre. My guess is that Gord liked the pun and left it in place because the album had no other Canadian content. Neither is a fully compelling rationale.

I can't argue with you but I kinda like that GD isn't precious with his references. Bobcaygeon is a hell of a song but even he admitted he used that town name simply because it rhymed with "constellations". I think he gets that these little shout outs aren't exactly song-writing gold, but more of a nod to the fans and a fun little idiosyncrasy of the band. An entire song about Sarnia would be lame, laboured, and pandering. But I enjoy these little inconsequential shout outs.

[spottrax]

I actually like idea of using "Sarnia" as the focal point (instead of Insomnia). The song is odd in the fact that such care was taken with the music, it is very calculated and sonically beautiful....and the vocal sounds like a one-take or scratch, reference recording (and dammit I love GD as much as anyone). The other song like this in the Hip cannon is Summer is Killing Us.....IMO. Sometimes with songs like these after a few weeks of listening, it "clicks" and all of a sudden I get it....I'm looking for that to happen with Sarnia.

In Sarnia still is my one and only "skip" on MMP.

The rest of the album is amazing....even the odd effects on Man and other songs are cool...with one other exception.

The only other (to me...questionable) moment on the album that I would change is the vocal effect on Ocean Next. That's a really cool song, very Gordon Lightfootish. I'd like to take off the chorus effect and do a tiny bit of pitch control (I know I know!) and splash a bit of compression and reverb (or long delay) and leave it be.....but that should be a different thread I suppose

[Killer Whale Tank]

andrew sharpe, I actually disagree that Gord's use of Canadiana has been mostly an 'idiosyncracy' rather than 'song-writing gold. First, the referents can offer a real sense of the *particularity* that's an aspect of good song-craft. 'Bobcageyon' gives us an outrageous (and terrific) rhyme AND helps to situate the story. The narrator has to be going somewhere relatively rural in order for the song to effectively contrast 'that night in Toronto' with that beautiful night under the stars, since you can't see stars in TO. So sure, it could have been any town, but the town needed a name, and he chose brilliantly. So my own take on it is that 'In Sarnia' is not up to standard in this respect.

spottrax, you make some interesting points. I like the whacked-out vocal on 'Summer is Killing Us,' but I think it works in that context because the entire song is whacked-out. It's got a weird, rambling kind of structure and a massive attitude problem. 'In Sarnia' has no real 'structural' rationale for the way it's delivered. ('Insomnia' would give it that rationale, I think; the song SOUNDS like how you feel at 3 AM tossing around on unfriendly sheets).

As for 'Ocean Next,' the production works beautifully there, to my ear. That song is, subtly, about death. Spiking it a little pulls it away from earnestness and adds an usefully unsettling element IMHO. But yeah, that's another thread! :wink:

[andrew sharpe]

andrew sharpe, I actually disagree that Gord's use of Canadiana has been mostly an 'idiosyncracy' rather than 'song-writing gold. First, the referents can offer a real sense of the *particularity* that's an aspect of good song-craft. 'Bobcageyon' gives us an outrageous (and terrific) rhyme AND helps to situate the story. The narrator has to be going somewhere relatively rural in order for the song to effectively contrast 'that night in Toronto' with that beautiful night under the stars, since you can't see stars in TO. So sure, it could have been any town, but the town needed a name, and he chose brilliantly. So my own take on it is that 'In Sarnia' is not up to standard in this respect.

Don't want to belabor this but I still say In Sarnia is a typical Hip reference. Thompson Girl walking from Churchill? Writing a song about Lake Memphremagog
And tonight I don’t believe? Inconsequential to the song, only meant as an inside reference for us, a nod to his home country, a purposefully buried reference typical of his songwriting.

Bobcaygeon situates the story? Maybe for the ten people that know anything about that town

Something like 38 Years Old, Wheat Kings, Attawapiskat, Looking for a Place to Happen, Born in the Water, those are examples of references that actually anchor the song. And I get that you prefer those more developed references. But I like that sometimes they just throw out these little shout outs, like In Sarnia. Maybe a little too cute, I guess I see what you're saying, but I still love it.

[Killer Whale Tank]

I hear you about 'belabouring' - but I disagree, dammit!

I see the Hip's basic approach to Canadiana as no different from the approach most good American songwriters (think Dylan, Steve Earle, etc.) have taken to their own local/national references. It's just part of good storytelling, to provide particularity for verisimilitude. What's different is not the approach, but rather the context. Canadians aren't used to hearing their places, history, etc., named in popular music (or, arguably, pop culture in general). So we react by hearing them as 'special' winks and nods to 'us' - extra goodies thrown in just to reinforce the link between band and fan-base, rather than a normal part of the creative process.

It doesn't matter who has heard of the town of Bobcageyon. It's not Gord's job to worry about listener ignorance. The rhyme is irresistible and the rural setting is absolutely central to the song. That's what counts. 'Thompson Girl' is about lovers snowed in for the winter. So sure, it could have been some other location, but it had to be somewhere northern (obviously). These aren't incidental references. But even if they are, I still dispute that they are purely thrown in 'for the fans.' I prefer to think of GD's writing as having more integrity than that - that he puts in the Canadiana because he likes it, that that's what's on his mind, and that it serves the song in some coherent way.

The Sarnia reference makes little sense in the context of the song, and yet is accorded pride of place by the song's title and its role in the refrain. It's really the first time I've felt that the reference was wholly calculated to fulfill the Hip's de rigeur CanCon requirement: in short, that it's pandering. And the song would have more impact on its own terms - quite apart from pandering to Canadians' need to feel special - if it had stuck to its original theme IMHO. Anyhow, I don't think it torpedoes the song; it's the production and vocal delivery that does that, if anything does. But it's still too bad, I think.

[redhill]

verisimilitude ?

had to google it

[direwolf74]

I hear you about 'belabouring' - but I disagree, dammit!

I see the Hip's basic approach to Canadiana as no different from the approach most good American songwriters (think Dylan, Steve Earle, etc.) have taken to their own local/national references. It's just part of good storytelling, to provide particularity for verisimilitude. What's different is not the approach, but rather the context. Canadians aren't used to hearing their places, history, etc., named in popular music (or, arguably, pop culture in general). So we react by hearing them as 'special' winks and nods to 'us' - extra goodies thrown in just to reinforce the link between band and fan-base, rather than a normal part of the creative process.

It doesn't matter who has heard of the town of Bobcageyon. It's not Gord's job to worry about listener ignorance. The rhyme is irresistible and the rural setting is absolutely central to the song. That's what counts. 'Thompson Girl' is about lovers snowed in for the winter. So sure, it could have been some other location, but it had to be somewhere northern (obviously). These aren't incidental references. But even if they are, I still dispute that they are purely thrown in 'for the fans.' I prefer to think of GD's writing as having more integrity than that - that he puts in the Canadiana because he likes it, that that's what's on his mind, and that it serves the song in some coherent way.

The Sarnia reference makes little sense in the context of the song, and yet is accorded pride of place by the song's title and its role in the refrain. It's really the first time I've felt that the reference was wholly calculated to fulfill the Hip's de rigeur CanCon requirement: in short, that it's pandering. And the song would have more impact on its own terms - quite apart from pandering to Canadians' need to feel special - if it had stuck to its original theme IMHO.

Great post. However I'm gonna disagree with your conclusion on the Sarnia reference. Personally what I get from the song is that Sarnia is either the town where he met the woman in the song, or that the town plays a sentimental role in the relationship somehow. "You're in my heart, and in my pocket, and in my eyes, in my blood. Sarnia, you're on my mind." When he thinks of the woman, he also thinks of the town. The two are intertwined. I love the reference myself, and I think it really works well in the context of the lyrics...at least the way I perceive them. Gord changed it for a reason. Knowing the way he writes, I highly doubt it was simply for fan service. Just my two cents.

[Killer Whale Tank]

direwolf74, you make a good case (as usual). On reflection, we could even read some commentary on Sarnia in those lyrics. E.g., Sarnia is 'in his pocket' (as in dirt, dust). It's 'in his blood' and 'in his heart' and 'in his eyes;' it's 'making him old' - suggestive of contamination, just as you'd expect from Chemical Valley: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_the_chemical_industry_in_Sarnia">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environme ... _in_Sarnia</a><!-- m --> I don't want to be too literal about it, but that's an interesting angle on the 'Sarnia' theme that hadn't occurred to me before. So, not only is he missing his baby, not only does he associate her with Sarnia, but the thing(s) he's missing are slowly destroying him.

In any case, I think I manoeuvered myself into overstating my objection to the lyric. I actually think that song - as a song, not a production - is one of the best on the record. Love the dramatic chords and the drumming, the melody is lovely (albeit warped by Gord's dubious vocal decisions) and the lyric strong. I was just trying to say that I thought abandoning 'insomnia' was a missed opportunity for a song with a forthright, universally recognizable, and very genuine theme. 'Sarnia' spikes it a bit, and it's sub-optimal to my ear, but hey, it's all good. The production/delivery is the real issue in my book.

[emperor penguin]

direwolf74, you make a good case (as usual). On reflection, we could even read some commentary on Sarnia in those lyrics. E.g., Sarnia is 'in his pocket' (as in dirt, dust). It's 'in his blood' and 'in his heart' and 'in his eyes;' it's 'making him old' - suggestive of contamination, just as you'd expect from Chemical Valley: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_the_chemical_industry_in_Sarnia">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environme ... _in_Sarnia</a><!-- m --> I don't want to be too literal about it, but that's an interesting angle on the 'Sarnia' theme that hadn't occurred to me before. So, not only is he missing his baby, not only does he associate her with Sarnia, but the thing(s) he's missing are slowly destroying him.

In any case, I think I manoeuvered myself into overstating my objection to the lyric. I actually think that song - as a song, not a production - is one of the best on the record. Love the dramatic chords and the drumming, the melody is lovely (albeit warped by Gord's dubious vocal decisions) and the lyric strong. I was just trying to say that I thought abandoning 'insomnia' was a missed opportunity for a song with a forthright, universally recognizable, and very genuine theme. 'Sarnia' spikes it a bit, and it's sub-optimal to my ear, but hey, it's all good. The production/delivery is the real issue in my book.

You and direwolf74 made me look at the song in a totally new way, and in the process enjoy it even more. Thanks guys!

[miasmal]

One of my favs. Can't wait to hopefully hear that guitar solo bouncing off the walls in an arena.

[sean.bonner]

If you had asked me to what my favourite is, I would have said Great Soul.

However, according to my last.fm, I've listened to I'm Sarnia the most.

I love it. Maybe it's my favourite.

[andrew sharpe]

I think my favourite "moment" on the album is how Gord enunciates "like. a. poker. hand." I just love the way the change in cadence conveys annoyance in such a typical Gord subtly humourous way. His ability to do this stuff is what makes him so great. He should have done more acting, I've loved everything I've seen him do.

[cochise]

I can't argue with you but I kinda like that GD isn't precious with his references. Bobcaygeon is a hell of a song but even he admitted he used that town name simply because it rhymed with "constellations". I think he gets that these little shout outs aren't exactly song-writing gold, but more of a nod to the fans and a fun little idiosyncrasy of the band. An entire song about Sarnia would be lame, laboured, and pandering. But I enjoy these little inconsequential shout outs.

I think I have to disagree on the Bobcaygeon point as well. I saw the same interview where Gord mentions about how it could have been any small town rural Canada, but the town itself plays too much of a role to be just tossed into a "coincidence" category. After all, there is no way that song was completely written and then just waiting for a town to pick to finish it.

I am no song writer, and I definitely would never be able to traverse through the mind of Gord to know his writing process, but to me I would guess he had this idea of constellations or star watching in his mind when something clicked with Bobcaygeon and then the song took form from there. So maybe it was selected because it rhymed with constellation, but to me the town is the anchor of that song. It could have taken a completely different form if some other town had been pulled into the song writing process. Or possibly if it wasn't for Bobcaygeon, that song idea could still be floating around in Gord's mind looking for that right anchor to shape the concept in a completely different direction.

But what do I know, just an opinion