[cferneyh]

This could make it very easy to cheer against the Pens.

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[thedarkcanuck]

thats terrible news :x

[jvjones]

indeed..and here's why i HATE the CBC and the Leafs...

Canada's team
by WILLIAM HOUSTON Sports Media Specialist
Globe & Mail
Dec. 15

The CBC's Hockey Night in Canada will carry Saturday's New York Rangers-Toronto Maple Leafs game in most English-language markets, but why?

Hockey Night certainly has better options: the Pittsburgh Penguins, with red-hot Sidney Crosby, are playing the Montreal Canadiens; and the Buffalo Sabres are in Ottawa against the Senators.

The Pens-Habs game will be seen in Quebec and Atlantic Canada, and Sabres-Sens will be limited to Ottawa, while Rangers-Leafs will get distribution in Ontario and regions West.

The Leafs won a game this week, but they're a weak team and their telecasts should no longer automatically qualify for national distribution.

Joel Darling, the executive producer of Hockey Night, says the Leafs take priority because they are the leading audience producer among the six Canadian NHL teams. He didn't rule out dropping the Leaf game in markets outside Ontario, if the Rangers build a large lead, and picking up the Montreal game.[/quote]


It's over 24 hours since last night's games...and I'm surprised at the lack of discussion on here.....firstly, I was almost speechless when I heard that Western canada was actually going to get to see the Habs-Pens game, I'm anxious to here if Joel Darling made/is going to make a statement regarding the decision. My guess/hope is someone pointed out that just because Ontario has 13 million people (or whatever the number is) that indeed the Leafs may produce the biggest overall market, but that doesn't mean they have a greater market share/fan base (or whatever you wan't to call it) in every province west of Ontario too.

I still contend that a Montreal-Boston game, or a Montreal-Ottawa game would get at least the same fan interest in western Canada as the usual, weekly Leaf broadcast...would it be too much too ask for 1 or 2 more Habs games on English out here this season???

And I must comment on the commentating, Don Wittman doesn't spring to mind as a great hockey play by play guy...but he's miles ahead of senile old Bob Cole...and Cassie Campbell in what, her 2nd game, isn't quite there yet, but she still has a lot more to offer than dopey Harry Neale and his "fifty seven footers".

Thirdly nice win by the Habs...too much power play time for both teams but as long as Koivu, Souray etc. continue to produce, I can't complain too much. And they did make Crosby look pretty average.

And lastly, the Laffs score 9 goals?!? See what good can happen with a change in broadcasts...:-)

J

[cferneyh]

My guess/hope is someone pointed out that just because Ontario has 13 million people (or whatever the number is) that indeed the Leafs may produce the biggest overall market, but that doesn't mean they have a greater market share/fan base (or whatever you wan't to call it) in every province west of Ontario too.

Actually, what it means is that in every other major market in Canada, the Leafs are the second biggest draw (go to any Leaf game in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Montreal and count the blue and white jerseys). Sorry Leaf haters, but this is a fact and I know it is a fact because of what I do for a living. So if you add up the biggest draw in Ontario plus the second biggest draw everywhere else, it only makes sense that they would broadcast the Leafs every chance they got.

[jvjones]

My guess/hope is someone pointed out that just because Ontario has 13 million people (or whatever the number is) that indeed the Leafs may produce the biggest overall market, but that doesn't mean they have a greater market share/fan base (or whatever you wan't to call it) in every province west of Ontario too.

Actually, what it means is that in every other major market in Canada, the Leafs are the second biggest draw (go to any Leaf game in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Montreal and count the blue and white jerseys). Sorry Leaf haters, but this is a fact and I know it is a fact because of what I do for a living. So if you add up the biggest draw in Ontario plus the second biggest draw everywhere else, it only makes sense that they would broadcast the Leafs every chance they got.

If this is a fact I assume you have some data to back up your assertion? I've been to Montreal games in Edmonton and Calgary (and Winnipeg), and the stands are swarming with Habs jersey's and I've had conversations with the local fans, who say it's "the same thing when the Leafs come to town". I probably shouldn't have to mention that Toronto is not the centre of the universe.....................but it's not!!!

J

[cferneyh]

My guess/hope is someone pointed out that just because Ontario has 13 million people (or whatever the number is) that indeed the Leafs may produce the biggest overall market, but that doesn't mean they have a greater market share/fan base (or whatever you wan't to call it) in every province west of Ontario too.

Actually, what it means is that in every other major market in Canada, the Leafs are the second biggest draw (go to any Leaf game in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Montreal and count the blue and white jerseys). Sorry Leaf haters, but this is a fact and I know it is a fact because of what I do for a living. So if you add up the biggest draw in Ontario plus the second biggest draw everywhere else, it only makes sense that they would broadcast the Leafs every chance they got.

If this is a fact I assume you have some data to back up your assertion? I've been to Montreal games in Edmonton and Calgary (and Winnipeg), and the stands are swarming with Habs jersey's and I've had conversations with the local fans, who say it's "the same thing when the Leafs come to town". I probably shouldn't have to mention that Toronto is not the centre of the universe.....................but it's not!!!

J

Uh, yeah - being in market research, I do have data to back it up. In fact, I've got about a decade's worth. But since our clients pay for this information, I can't exactly post it here for free. :lol:

And yeah, you are right - the Habs do have the similar impact in other cities, but it's not even close.

[jvjones]

My guess/hope is someone pointed out that just because Ontario has 13 million people (or whatever the number is) that indeed the Leafs may produce the biggest overall market, but that doesn't mean they have a greater market share/fan base (or whatever you wan't to call it) in every province west of Ontario too.

Actually, what it means is that in every other major market in Canada, the Leafs are the second biggest draw (go to any Leaf game in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Montreal and count the blue and white jerseys). Sorry Leaf haters, but this is a fact and I know it is a fact because of what I do for a living. So if you add up the biggest draw in Ontario plus the second biggest draw everywhere else, it only makes sense that they would broadcast the Leafs every chance they got.

If this is a fact I assume you have some data to back up your assertion? I've been to Montreal games in Edmonton and Calgary (and Winnipeg), and the stands are swarming with Habs jersey's and I've had conversations with the local fans, who say it's "the same thing when the Leafs come to town". I probably shouldn't have to mention that Toronto is not the centre of the universe.....................but it's not!!!

J

Uh, yeah - being in market research, I do have data to back it up. In fact, I've got about a decade's worth. But since our clients pay for this information, I can't exactly post it here for free. :lol:

And yeah, you are right - the Habs do have the similar impact in other cities, but it's not even close.

Well. I have to plead ignorance on this one, I did not know that there were people out there who get to make a living out of researching what percentage of people in Edmonton or Regina or Winnipeg cheer for Montreal, Toronto etc. (no sarcasm intended)...

I think what I would like to do is pool some funds together and see if I can hire your firm to determine why anyone would actually cheer for the Leafs, period (sarcasm intended)...

But seriously, I just want to pose one question to the masses, and I'm going to limit this to a Montreal/Toronto question (we know that Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver are destined to share the late game on CBC, and I'll leave out Ottawa because they don't have the longevity of the other two teams)...the question is this - if Toronto has a 55% fan share in Western Canada (which I'm still doubtful of) and Montreal has a 45% share, does it naturally follow that Toronto's games should be broadcast in western Canada 26 Saturday nights out of 26 (as originally scheduled), and Montreal games should be broadcast out west only when they play Toronto???

[cferneyh]

Well. I have to plead ignorance on this one, I did not know that there were people out there who get to make a living out of researching what percentage of people in Edmonton or Regina or Winnipeg cheer for Montreal, Toronto etc. (no sarcasm intended)...

I think what I would like to do is pool some funds together and see if I can hire your firm to determine why anyone would actually cheer for the Leafs, period (sarcasm intended)...

Companies who spend money on advertising like to make sure that their advertising dollars are put to good use. Some people refer to this as "return on investment". So, if you sell, oh, I don't know, let's say beverages, and you have been approached by a professional sports franchise to advertise on, oh I don't know, let's say their rink boards, they need to show you numbers that prove to you that advertising on their rink boards is a good return on investment because of the number of people watching their professional sports franchise.

I'd love to conduct your study for you, but I'm guessing that with your self-admitted ignorance as to how or why someone would actually want to research consumers, you'll be even more shocked to discover how much market research projects cost (sarcasm intended).

[day_for_night]

My guess/hope is someone pointed out that just because Ontario has 13 million people (or whatever the number is) that indeed the Leafs may produce the biggest overall market, but that doesn't mean they have a greater market share/fan base (or whatever you wan't to call it) in every province west of Ontario too.

Actually, what it means is that in every other major market in Canada, the Leafs are the second biggest draw (go to any Leaf game in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Montreal and count the blue and white jerseys). Sorry Leaf haters, but this is a fact and I know it is a fact because of what I do for a living. So if you add up the biggest draw in Ontario plus the second biggest draw everywhere else, it only makes sense that they would broadcast the Leafs every chance they got.

this would make sense for a private corporation...

however, the CBC is a gov't owned and operated entity, and as such its got mandates OTHER than *just* turning a profit. now don't get me wrong, profit is obviously important, but the CBC is also paid for by everyone across Canada. One of their objectives is to display content from across Canada, and that would logically extend to sporting events.

the fact that they play so many damned leaf games has nothing to do with profit and everything to do with the fact that the CBC is based out of Toronto, and is run by a bunch of people who think Toronto is god's gift to Canadian cities and everyone else comes second. They are rank with Ontartio-centrism, and its a practice that needs to end...

[cferneyh]

My guess/hope is someone pointed out that just because Ontario has 13 million people (or whatever the number is) that indeed the Leafs may produce the biggest overall market, but that doesn't mean they have a greater market share/fan base (or whatever you wan't to call it) in every province west of Ontario too.

Actually, what it means is that in every other major market in Canada, the Leafs are the second biggest draw (go to any Leaf game in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Montreal and count the blue and white jerseys). Sorry Leaf haters, but this is a fact and I know it is a fact because of what I do for a living. So if you add up the biggest draw in Ontario plus the second biggest draw everywhere else, it only makes sense that they would broadcast the Leafs every chance they got.

this would make sense for a private corporation...

however, the CBC is a gov't owned and operated entity, and as such its got mandates OTHER than *just* turning a profit. now don't get me wrong, profit is obviously important, but the CBC is also paid for by everyone across Canada. One of their objectives is to display content from across Canada, and that would logically extend to sporting events.

the fact that they play so many damned leaf games has nothing to do with profit and everything to do with the fact that the CBC is based out of Toronto, and is run by a bunch of people who think Toronto is god's gift to Canadian cities and everyone else comes second. They are rank with Ontartio-centrism, and its a practice that needs to end...

Actually, the CBC's mandate is:
(l) the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, as the national public broadcaster, should provide radio and television services incorporating a wide range of programming that informs, enlightens and entertains;

(m) the programming provided by the Corporation should

(i) be predominantly and distinctively Canadian,

(ii) reflect Canada and its regions to national and regional audiences, while serving the special needs of those regions,

(iii) actively contribute to the flow and exchange of cultural expression,

(iv) be in English and in French, reflecting the different needs and circumstances of each official language community, including the particular needs and circumstances of English and French linguistic minorities,

(v) strive to be of equivalent quality in English and in French,

(vi) contribute to shared national consciousness and identity,

(vii) be made available throughout Canada by the most appropriate and efficient means and as resources become available for the purpose, and

(viii) reflect the multicultural and multiracial nature of Canada;



Somehow I don't see "broadcast a proportionate share of NHL games from every Canadian market" in there.

The yeah, the fact that they play so many Leaf games has everything to do with profit. More viewers = higher advertising premiums. It's really not that complicated.

[grimes]

Is it fair that the Leafs are on all the time? Definitely not. But it's the profits from those Leafs' games that fund a lot of the other programming on the network. If you don't like it, you can always get digital cable or satellite. Not sure what it's like elsewhere, but on Rogers digital you get 6 CBC affiliates free with the basic package, one from each time zone. So last Saturday for example, I watched the Leafs kill the Rangers on CBC-Toronto while also watching the Habs-Penguins on CBC-Halifax.

[grimes]

This could make it very easy to cheer against the Pens.

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I hope the NHL follows the CFL's lead and has the sense not to involve themselves with D'Angelo. As long as Bettman is running the show though it wouldn't surprise me if they do. Not sure what it is exactly, but for some reason I could see those two getting along really well...

[das_hips]

Companies who spend money on advertising like to make sure that their advertising dollars are put to good use. Some people refer to this as "return on investment". So, if you sell, oh, I don't know, let's say beverages, and you have been approached by a professional sports franchise to advertise on, oh I don't know, let's say their rink boards, they need to show you numbers that prove to you that advertising on their rink boards is a good return on investment because of the number of people watching their professional sports franchise.

I'd love to conduct your study for you, but I'm guessing that with your self-admitted ignorance as to how or why someone would actually want to research consumers, you'll be even more shocked to discover how much market research projects cost (sarcasm intended).

The only thing that I have to add to the whole CBC discussion, is that based upon the Saturday schedules thus far, and as is scheduled to continue, the CBC plays almost every Senators game played on Saturdays, and while about half of them will reach a nation-wide broadcast because of their opponent, or the start time, about seven or eight of the Saturday night games the Senators play will be broadcast in the Ottawa area only. If the CBC can find it profitable to do this for the city of Ottawa, how can it not be profitable to do the same for Calgary, or Edmonton when the two cities are only marginally smaller, and especially for Vancouver, a city more then twice the size of Ottawa. Factor in the some-what dispersed support of the Senators in this city (there is certainly an allegiance of Habs and Leafs fans living in the capital, I think 'Goulet' could provide that), the unbalanced linguistics of the city (a sizeable portion of the city is French speaking only), the essential basis of what a prime-time audience can actually provide (in that showing a Leafs game at 4:00 PM PST probably only draws a mediocre audience, while showing both an Edmonton and Vancouver game at 7:00 PM local time would provide a more ideal television audience for advertisers), and a comment from a certain Hipbase member along the lines that "Senators' fans were the worst in the league", and I find it hard to digest that the CBC can't find more airtime for the smaller markets on top of the GTA coverage of a Leafs game.

[cferneyh]

Well, first of all let me say I don't work for the CBC, so I don't know the economics behind every decision. What I do know - as I've tried to articulate above - is that the Leafs are the second most popular team in every major Canadian city outside of Ontario. I know a lot of people on here refuse to believe that, but hey, lots of people refuse to believe there were dinosaurs, so I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind.

It is certainly profitable to show the local team in the local market. But I imagine it is not terribly profitable to have every Canadian team get local coverage every Saturday night. That would require six crews - can you think of six sets of broadcasters? I imagine when they've crunched the numbers they've determine that Ottawa's local HNIC broadcasts are more profitable (perhaps lower expenses come into play here) than those for the Western based teams.

I think the other risk you run is that many of these decisions are made before the season starts, and right or wrong, fans of the Leafs follow them no matter how good or bad they are playing. That seems to be the same in Edmonton, but man, I lived in Vancouver during the lean years of the late 90s, and a lot of Canuck fans are simply fans of the 'nucks when they are winning, and couldn't care less when they are losing. I was at games where attendance couldn't have been more than 11,000 - in a supposed hockey market! So if you were to give the 'nucks coverage on every Saturday night and they ended up having a Columbus-esque season, the CBC would get killed.

[skippy the wonder dog]

... the Leafs are the second most popular team in every major Canadian city outside of Ontario. I know a lot of people on here refuse to believe that, but hey, lots of people refuse to believe there were dinosaurs ...

Which reminds me that I saw Stockwell Day at Vancouver airport last month. I find it staggering that anyone ever thought he could have been PM. I also find it staggering that the Leafs are the second most popular team in every major Canadian city outside Ontario, but the Stock thing was true, too.

Whatever those Maple Leaf marketing people are doing, it surely works. Manufacturers of shit the world over should look to them as gods and emulate their methods. Although it may be hard for, say, General Motors to take advantage of anti-francophone sentiment....