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General Election 2006

j-monster Wrote:
beanmedic Wrote:this is funny in a sad kind of way

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ndp.ca/page/2121">http://www.ndp.ca/page/2121</a><!-- m -->

As someone who sits on the opposite side of the political spectrum as you, let me just say that I find this equally hilarious! Apparently the duplicity of today's version of the Liberal Party knows no bounds.

Here's a question for you Liberal supporters out there... what do you make of this? http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/st...ection2006

I think Scott Reid's comments are disgusting, and his apology was hollow... but I'd like to know what Liberal supporters have to say about it.

I'm obviously not a liberal supporter, but although insensitive, I understand what I think he was trying to say. the less fortunate can make some very bad decisions. rates of tobacco, alcohol, and drug use are higher in the poor compared to the rich. responsible management of their money? no. the fact is that most poor people cant afford child care in the first place. will $1200 make the family suddently afford child care? no. in that case the $1200 is just bonus cash that they can do whatever they want with. responsible management of their money? no.

to use a personal example: I want to get a car but I dont have enough money at all - not even close (no kidding, i'm a student). you show up and hand me a $50 bill. can i now afford a car? no. I'll just spend the money at the bar this weekend. drinks on me.
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beanmedic Wrote:
j-monster Wrote:
beanmedic Wrote:this is funny in a sad kind of way

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ndp.ca/page/2121">http://www.ndp.ca/page/2121</a><!-- m -->

As someone who sits on the opposite side of the political spectrum as you, let me just say that I find this equally hilarious! Apparently the duplicity of today's version of the Liberal Party knows no bounds.

Here's a question for you Liberal supporters out there... what do you make of this? http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/st...ection2006

I think Scott Reid's comments are disgusting, and his apology was hollow... but I'd like to know what Liberal supporters have to say about it.

I'm obviously not a liberal supporter, but although insensitive, I understand what I think he was trying to say. the less fortunate can make some very bad decisions. rates of tobacco, alcohol, and drug use are higher in the poor compared to the rich. responsible management of their money? no. the fact is that most poor people cant afford child care in the first place. will $1200 make the family suddently afford child care? no. in that case the $1200 is just bonus cash that they can do whatever they want with. responsible management of their money? no.

to use a personal example: I want to get a car but I dont have enough money at all - not even close (no kidding, i'm a student). you show up and hand me a $50 bill. can i now afford a car? no. I'll just spend the money at the bar this weekend. drinks on me.

I love it! Since you evidently can't manage your money, the government should take more of mine away to help you out. :roll:
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$1200/yr for daycare? On what planet? Ofcourse this money will go to buying other things - boots, coats, food, admission to the Museum of Civilzation - because it won't come close to offsetting the cost of daycare for low income families.
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skippy the wonder dog Wrote:
sherpahigh Wrote:If you don't want to take an article that uses facts from the FBI, Juristat, UK Home Office and Statistics Canada to argue it's position seriously, then that's your choice.

I wouldn't take any article by Gary Mauser seriously, because he threw away his credibility long ago. Mauser is not so much a researcher as an activist. It is difficult to take him seriously when you consider that he is a leading figure in the BC Wildlife Federation, a pro-hunting lobby group. He is not a disinterested researcher reaching independent conclusions, but an activist committed to a cause.

His papers continually rely on false reasoning. In this particular case, he observes crime statistics and gun laws and essentially argues, post hoc ergo propter hoc, that banning guns leads to increased crime.

The comparisons are not valid, however. The mistake is to compare one society to another without considering how the societies differ, and how each society is changing. Immigration in the UK is not immigration in the US; crime in the US is not crime in Canada; poverty in Canada is not poverty in Sweden.

It is almost impossible to find really good information on gun control, and hacks like Mauser (and Wendy Cukier on the other side) are a big part of the problem.

I don't know a lot about Mr. Mauser. Looking at his cv online it appears he's a fairly smart guy. You say he's an activist for a pro-hunting group, I'll take your word for it.

I'd also agree that crime is not crime all over the world. I would argue however that there are some similarities between our cultures, Canada's and Australia's in particular and that there are lessons to be learned in these statistics.
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Sam Wrote:$1200/yr for daycare? On what planet? Ofcourse this money will go to buying other things - boots, coats, food, admission to the Museum of Civilzation - because it won't come close to offsetting the cost of daycare for low income families.

I don't quite follow? The money won't cover all of the daycare costs, so none of it will be spent on that cause?

I don't think Harper ever mentioned that the $1200 was to cover the entire cost of daycare. Since when is it everyone's rights in Canada to have society bare the cost of raising children? If the government's determined to be involved with this, which perhaps they should be to some extent, then I'd much prefer to see the choice be left up to the parents on how the money be spent. Some people that would qualify for this money would not spend it on daycare because they're staying at home to raise their children, that's the point, not everyone wants the same thing for their children.
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beanmedic Wrote:to use a personal example: I want to get a car but I dont have enough money at all - not even close (no kidding, i'm a student). you show up and hand me a $50 bill. can i now afford a car? no. I'll just spend the money at the bar this weekend. drinks on me.

Why wouldn't you put the $50 in the bank and put it towards the car?

Seriously, why would anyone with children that can't afford sufficient care for them squander money given to them to help with the cause?
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While it is fairly apparent Scott Reid's comments were a bit insensitive, I think it's pretty obvious the message he was getting across. This $1200 cheque is nothing but an extended baby bonus, essentially a tax cut (a tax cut which is taxed, so a low to middle income family will only see about $900) which provides financial support to allow parents to decide which route they will take regarding their child.

While I understand the Conservatives intentions, this proposal shouldn't be considered anything related to a 'Child-Care Platform', which is what it is being coined as.

If the Federal Government skips the cheque cutting, and allocates the same (or as the Liberals will, greater) assets into national day-care, stay-at-home moms/dads, and especially single parents will be more inclined to seek employment while paying substantially less for child-care.
This $1200 is really just an employment deterrent for some people (not all, but enough).

What do people spend their CTC benefits on anyways? Well, based on my observations from behind the teller wicket for four years, the moderately well-off deposit it to an RESP or a childrens savings account. The less fortunate, the folks who have low to moderate income generally use it to pay their rent, or cash it immediately to be spent on whatever they see fit (childrens clothes, day-care, or if they wish, beer and popcorn). Ultimately, when this $1200 bonus is put in the hands of low income Canadians, I generally agree with the Liberal's position that this is just a cash handout. It provides no real opportunity for child care, it provides a tax break, which is appropriate for some Canadians, but I think the majority of Canadians would benefit from subsidized day-care...

Realistically, though, it's not going to happen anyways. For any of Stephen Harpers proposals to pass, they will need a majority government. The Liberals, NDP and Bloc all stand 180 degrees from the Conservatives, and the latest polls put the Conservatives 24% away from that.
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sherpahigh Wrote:
beanmedic Wrote:to use a personal example: I want to get a car but I dont have enough money at all - not even close (no kidding, i'm a student). you show up and hand me a $50 bill. can i now afford a car? no. I'll just spend the money at the bar this weekend. drinks on me.

Why wouldn't you put the $50 in the bank and put it towards the car?

Seriously, why would anyone with children that can't afford sufficient care for them squander money given to them to help with the cause?

I would squander the money. I'm a student. If I put the $50 in the bank, I wouldnt have nearly enough saved in addition to that before I graduate. After I graduate I will have no problem being able to afford the car, and the $50 won't make any difference.

To answer your last question: it's definitely a poor use of the money. the money should be spent on useful things, but unfortuantely it doesnt always happen. its undeniable that in a few cases the money probably will be spent on beer and popcorn, sadly. It was still a shitty comment to make, and shows a pretty negative attitude toward the homeless. paul martin should kick his ass.
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sherpahigh Wrote:I don't know a lot about Mr. Mauser. Looking at his cv online it appears he's a fairly smart guy.

We'll have to add "argumentum ad verecundiam" to the logical fallacy list to keep "post hoc ergo propter hoc" company.
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das_hips Wrote:This $1200 cheque is nothing but an extended baby bonus, essentially a tax cut (a tax cut which is taxed, so a low to middle income family will only see about $900) which provides financial support to allow parents to decide which route they will take regarding their child.

If the Federal Government skips the cheque cutting, and allocates the same (or as the Liberals will, greater) assets into national day-care, stay-at-home moms/dads, and especially single parents will be more inclined to seek employment while paying substantially less for child-care.

What do people spend their CTC benefits on anyways? Well, based on my observations from behind the teller wicket for four years, the moderately well-off deposit it to an RESP or a childrens savings account. The less fortunate, the folks who have low to moderate income generally use it to pay their rent, or cash it immediately to be spent on whatever they see fit (childrens clothes, day-care, or if they wish, beer and popcorn). Ultimately, when this $1200 bonus is put in the hands of low income Canadians, I generally agree with the Liberal's position that this is just a cash handout. It provides no real opportunity for child care, it provides a tax break, which is appropriate for some Canadians, but I think the majority of Canadians would benefit from subsidized day-care...

With regards to the $1200 dollars being just an irresponsible gesture from the government that gets taxed, how is this any different from previous Liberal and Conservative government rebates on PST and GST that get handed out around election time?
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VioletlightHeron Wrote:With regards to the $1200 dollars being just an irresponsible gesture from the government that gets taxed, how is this any different from previous Liberal and Conservative government rebates on PST and GST that get handed out around election time?

It isn't any different. But isn't that the point? Nothing different is being proposed. Isn't it about time that somebody did something original and potentially valuable rather than throwing a few bucks around?


Quote:I don't quite follow? The money won't cover all of the daycare costs, so none of it will be spent on that cause?

Sorry, the point I was making in mind but that never got to the keyboard is that $1200/yr is not a "daycare program." It's a drop in the bucket of the actual cost of daycare; it will do little or nothing to alleviate the burden primarilly women bear in paying for suitable care for their children.

Don't throw a few bucks around - be a responsible government for a change. When the gov't wanted women in the workforce during the Second World War, they made standardized daycare available. The cost was minimal compared to the benefit of having women working in the war industry. So, we know that it can be done if the political and social will is there.

Which brings us to the crux of the problem. We (Canadians) don't have the political will to pick a restaurant for lunch let alone develop a comprehensive, fair and affordable national daycare system.
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Sam Wrote:Don't throw a few bucks around - be a responsible government for a change. When the gov't wanted women in the workforce during the Second World War, they made standardized daycare available. The cost was minimal compared to the benefit of having women working in the war industry. So, we know that it can be done if the political and social will is there.

Which brings us to the crux of the problem. We (Canadians) don't have the political will to pick a restaurant for lunch let alone develop a comprehensive, fair and affordable national daycare system.

You can't possibly be comparing a time when Canada was at war to right now?? I'm sure the cost was minimal at a time when a lot of the men from those families were overseas fighting the war. To create a standardized daycare system so that women could join the workforce and help offset some of the vacancies left by men who left to fight the war actually makes sense. Far from today's conditions however.

I've got to go to work now. I'll add more later on.
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I'm only comparing the political will of the wartime gov't versus the political will of the current gov't. When they want to act, they can and do. They even do things that are smart and efficient. It can happen.

As for national daycare being a priority - it is for people who lack affordable, safe daycare but require 2 incomes to stay financially afloat.

Quote:I'm sure the cost was minimal at a time when a lot of the men from those families were overseas fighting the war.

Actually, cost wasn't an issue in the Second World War. The gov't identified what was keeping women out of the workforce and worked to eliminate those obstacles. Obviously, for many women, daycare was a significant concern, so the gov't pulled out the stops to start a national daycare system. Just like they built chaperoned residences for single women forced to leave home to work in war industries. It took until almost 1944 for the wartime economy to really start humming, but considering nothing was in place in 1939, that's saying something.
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sherpahigh Wrote:
Sam Wrote:Don't throw a few bucks around - be a responsible government for a change. When the gov't wanted women in the workforce during the Second World War, they made standardized daycare available. The cost was minimal compared to the benefit of having women working in the war industry. So, we know that it can be done if the political and social will is there.

Which brings us to the crux of the problem. We (Canadians) don't have the political will to pick a restaurant for lunch let alone develop a comprehensive, fair and affordable national daycare system.

You can't possibly be comparing a time when Canada was at war to right now?? I'm sure the cost was minimal at a time when a lot of the men from those families were overseas fighting the war. To create a standardized daycare system so that women could join the workforce and help offset some of the vacancies left by men who left to fight the war actually makes sense. Far from today's conditions however.

I've got to go to work now. I'll add more later on.

Maybe Harper wants us to jon the Iraq war as part of his child care plan!?!? :jump
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The problem with the Conservative proposal, and the reason it is dishonest to call it a "child care" program, is that it is designed to benefit those who don't need the money.

The $1200 is taxed at the rate of the lower income earner. This means that it is taxed for a single parent, or for a family in which both parents work, but it is tax-free for a family that can afford to have one parent stay at home.

Taking myself as a concrete example: I would receive $3600 annually, which would not be taxed as my wife does not work. Living in my nice, large, suburban home with kids who don't lack for food, clothes, books, toys, or anything else, I would be free to spend my $3600 as I please. (Notably, when Canada AM interviewed an Ordinary Canadian Mother on this subject, the first thing she thought of was her RRSP.)

Meanwhile, the single mother who bought my old condo would also receive $3600 (although she has two kids, we'll pretend there are three to keep things equal). Unlike me, she would actually need that money, to pay for daycare for her kids so that she can go to her low-paying job, and to supplement her lousy wages. But unlike me, she would have to pay some of that money back in tax.

This "child care" plan, like Stephen Harper's plan to give a tax break to families that can afford hockey equipment, is aimed directly at middle-class voters, whom Harper is courting as his natural constituency.

The Liberal plan for national daycare is half-assed, but at least it serves a purpose other than buying votes. Allowing people -- primarily women -- to get into the workforce, save money, and contribute to the economy is a public good. Subsidized daycare provides a public benefit. It goes along with all that good conservative rhetoric about rising tides and boats.

That's why the Liberals, the NDP, and the Green party all support a national daycare program in some form.

Only the Conservatives offer another plan. It's not a plan at all, as we have seen, but throwing money at your base is easier than saying what Stephen Harper is too chickenshit to say: that he does not support a national child care program, because he does not think government should be involved in child care in any way.
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