[The Horrible Esthete]

That's the exercise that leads me to reject M@W while maintaining the IVL is a group of good songs foiled by production.

I see what you're getting at, but thinking of other Hip songs that I think are blue-ribbon cuts but also probably fail this test could include Membership (best cut on PP, IMO), Leave (best cut on IVL, IMO), Thugs (best on DFN, IMO), Fight (one of the best on RA, IMO), and the list goes on. I think a crucial part of what makes the Hip so fuckin' great is the twin-guitar attack and how well it is supported by Sinclair's ferocious bass-playing.

'Wild Mountain Honey'---unlistenable IMHO.

It's understandable how true-blue Hip fans can't get into this track, because it is as atypical, in terms of sound and structure, as any Hip song. But I absolutely love that 'big drum' sound, and love to hear Paul, GS, and BB tripling the same lines throughout most of the song. It's raw and it's powerful, and I get off on that shit. But man, how can any rock afficionado not have their ass-kicked by the that droning groove towards the end of the song? I love GD, but sometimes it's just nice when he shuts his yap for a minute in reverence of the rip of guitars....

[lord brazle]

Lord Brazle, what about the 'songwriting' test? i.e., can you imagine a given song working when played without backing, just vocal and acoustic guitar.

I see what you mean... some songs rely solely on drums and such. But some songs I'm not big on would probably be more favoured "unplugged", as it were. Songwriting aside though (even though they are songs) I sometimes look at the lyrics as just being written, you know? Just the lines, placement of words, why use this word? why not use this word? sort of thing... And it's surprising when you listen to a song (and the music accompanied with it) and it gives a certain impression and then the words (without music, just read as they are) give off a slight different feel. With this thought in mind, I don't dislike IVL. The lyrics are solid and excellent examples of the Hip's capability in songwriting. Actually, thinking about it, the songs are good, but it must be the production that makes it sound awful. Because I can imagine the songs on IVL with nothing but the chords and vocals and they are actually better than what they are on IVL. I'm rambling and I don't know if I'm making sense so I'm stopping...

[akoso]

Okay, so to you anti-IVL guys who credit/blame the production, do you prefer (or can I even go as far as to say "like") songs from IVL when played live and thus ridding the errors production? I realize that now you only really hear Silver Jet and Good Life, but what did you guys think of the songs from IVL when they were touring for the album?

[Killer Whale Tank]

I remember being disappointed the 'Silver Jet' sounded too much like it does on the record. 'Good Life,' though, was twice as powerful live. I find the line 'get with the times' profoundly moving, given that it came out in the wake of 9/11.

Brazle, what you say makes perfect sense---at least I hope it does, 'cause it's what I've driving at in about half a dozen posts.

[grooveless touque]

I say the production is at fault to spare the artists I respect so much some criticism.

But truth be told I don't like most of the songs on IVL either. People say the lyrics on M@W are too obscure and technical, and I think the same of the music on IVL. There's no artistry in them. Live, I can't stand Dire Wolf, Silver Jet, Are You Ready, or Good Life. I just don't feel anything there, it's "going through the motions" rock music, paint by numbers if you will.

So if the live shows are a barometer of an album's merits, I'd still conclude IVL is their only awful album. Only The Darkest Ones works on the album as well as it should, and only Leave is one that works as well live as it should in an improvement over the album version.