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Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - loach - 09-06-2016

I've been revisiting some of the early bootlegs lately. One of the things that I'd forgotten is how many songs Gord Sinclair wrote before UTH came out (Small Town Bringdown, Last American Exit, Get Back Again, etc).

I know with UTH and every album after, songwriting credits were attributed to the whole Tragically Hip band, and it has been a collaborative process among the bandmates for the overall song (music plus lyrics). But, it is generally assumed (correct me if I'm wrong) that Downie has written the lyrics since Road Apples.

However, some of the UTH songs had been around awhile before the album and it wouldn't surprise me that Sinclair wrote the lyrics to some of them - I would guess Another Midnight, Trickle Down, She Didn't Know. Just curious, anyone here know?

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - loach - 09-06-2016

By the way, let me just add - thank you to all of you who worked to make the Archive possible. I first heard the Hip in 11th grade when someone was blaring UTH in the school cafeteria during my spare period. Went and bought the CD myself (this was 1990) and became a lifelong fan. Even though I got every studio album when it came out, I never got into the bootleg scene. Going back this summer and listening to some of live material on the Archives has just been a great way to both reminisce and hear some early stuff that I hadn't before.

Anyways, I know it must have been a lot of work in getting the Archives up and rolling, so I wanted to voice my appreciation for allowing this to be publicly available.

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - potsie - 09-06-2016

loach Wrote:I've been revisiting some of the early bootlegs lately. One of the things that I'd forgotten is how many songs Gord Sinclair wrote before UTH came out (Small Town Bringdown, Last American Exit, Get Back Again, etc).

I know with UTH and every album after, songwriting credits were attributed to the whole Tragically Hip band, and it has been a collaborative process among the bandmates for the overall song (music plus lyrics). But, it is generally assumed (correct me if I'm wrong) that Downie has written the lyrics since Road Apples.

However, some of the UTH songs had been around awhile before the album and it wouldn't surprise me that Sinclair wrote the lyrics to some of them - I would guess Another Midnight, Trickle Down, She Didn't Know. Just curious, anyone here know?

I don't know the answer but your three choices for potential Sinclair penned tunes seem reasonable. If there were four, a betting man might also put money on I'll Believe in You. I posted this before but there is a quote (in a doctoral thesis written about Fully Completely, of all places!) from Rob Baker in which he states that Downie announced to the band during the RA sessions that he would no longer sing lyrics written by others in the band. We can thus assume that maybe some of the lyrics on UTH are not written by Downie. It would be logical to think that there was a gradual passing of the song-writing baton between the EP (for which Sinclair is a strong contributor) to RA when all the lyrics are written by Downie. When Gord made this announcement Baker said "It was a bitter pill to swallow" as it "handcuffed the other songwriters in the band".

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - andrew sharpe - 09-06-2016

potsie Wrote:I posted this before but there is a quote (in a doctoral thesis written about Fully Completely, of all places!) from Rob Baker in which he states that Downie announced to the band during the RA sessions that he would no longer sing lyrics written by others in the band. We can thus assume that maybe some of the lyrics on UTH are not written by Downie. It would be logical to think that there was a gradual passing of the song-writing baton between the EP (for which Sinclair is a strong contributor) to RA when all the lyrics are written by Downie. When Gord made this announcement Baker said "It was a bitter pill to swallow" as it "handcuffed the other songwriters in the band".
Is that thesis posted anywhere? I'm kinda surprised GD would be this undemocratic, even if he is clearly the best writer. It would have obviously changed the personality of the band but Smalltown Bringdown is a decent enough written song by GS and PL's solo albums have proven him a decent lyricist as well.

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - potsie - 09-06-2016

andrew sharpe Wrote:Is that thesis posted anywhere? I'm kinda surprised GD would be this undemocratic, even if he is clearly the best writer. It would have obviously changed the personality of the band but Smalltown Bringdown is a decent enough written song by GS and PL's solo albums have proven him a decent lyricist as well.

Here it is: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://ecommons.usask.ca/bitstream/handle/10388/etd-08112010-144224/PaulAikenheadETD.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y">https://ecommons.usask.ca/bitstream/han ... sAllowed=y</a><!-- m --> And my apologies, it's a master's thesis, not a doctoral thesis. Admittedly I've only skimmed the document but there are Rob Baker quotes sprinkled throughout. The quote I'm directly referencing on song writing is on pages 34 and 35. There is also some interesting discussion of the FC recording process and Rob talks about how Looking for a Place to Happen was banged out in a matter of 2 hours in the basement at a Kingston house party in the winter of 1991/92. Would have loved to have been there!

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - cochise - 09-06-2016

potsie Wrote:I don't know the answer but your three choices for potential Sinclair penned tunes seem reasonable. If there were four, a betting man might also put money on I'll Believe in You.

Personally I would bet against that. To me, the line "I'll believe in you or I'll be leaving you tonight" is classic Downie. He's carried those style of homonymesque/double meaning lyrics thorough so many songs. Of course I am drawing a complete blank as to some other examples at the moment, but I would bet that is a Downie song.

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - loach - 09-06-2016

potsie Wrote:
andrew sharpe Wrote:Is that thesis posted anywhere? I'm kinda surprised GD would be this undemocratic, even if he is clearly the best writer. It would have obviously changed the personality of the band but Smalltown Bringdown is a decent enough written song by GS and PL's solo albums have proven him a decent lyricist as well.

Here it is: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://ecommons.usask.ca/bitstream/handle/10388/etd-08112010-144224/PaulAikenheadETD.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y">https://ecommons.usask.ca/bitstream/han ... sAllowed=y</a><!-- m --> And my apologies, it's a master's thesis, not a doctoral thesis. Admittedly I've only skimmed the document but there are Rob Baker quotes sprinkled throughout. The quote I'm directly referencing on song writing is on pages 34 and 35. There is also some interesting discussion of the FC recording process and Rob talks about how Looking for a Place to Happen was banged out in a matter of 2 hours in the basement at a Kingston house party in the winter of 1991/92. Would have loved to have been there!

Interesting read. Thanks for posting.

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - schaggs - 09-06-2016

Probably explains why we haven't heard any EP and some selected UTH songs since sometime in 1991

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - chancellor - 09-06-2016

Pretty sure Blow was written by SInclair. I think I remember Downie saying this is a few recorded shows. What shows now, I have no idea.

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - loach - 09-06-2016

chancellor Wrote:Pretty sure Blow was written by SInclair. I think I remember Downie saying this is a few recorded shows. What shows now, I have no idea.
I remember Downie saying that blow at high dough was a phrase his grandma used. So, I think he wrote it, but it may have been co-written.

Edit: I guess I remembered that fact from hipmuseum (link below):

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hipmuseum.com/blow.html">http://www.hipmuseum.com/blow.html</a><!-- m -->

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - TG - 09-06-2016

cochise Wrote:Personally I would bet against that. To me, the line "I'll believe in you or I'll be leaving you tonight" is classic Downie. He's carried those style of homonymesque/double meaning lyrics thorough so many songs. Of course I am drawing a complete blank as to some other examples at the moment, but I would bet that is a Downie song.

This is true.

the easiest example is Luv(sic)

or this poem in Cokemachineglow

Minneapolis Hotel Room

Here i sit
cool as a garage
writing by lightning
i don't mean lightning as a metaphor for inspiration
i mean lightning
intermittent lightening
by lightning
really turning it on.
A lightning-powered hotel room.
Its the most lightning i've ever seen
in one room.

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - potsie - 09-07-2016

cochise Wrote:
potsie Wrote:I don't know the answer but your three choices for potential Sinclair penned tunes seem reasonable. If there were four, a betting man might also put money on I'll Believe in You.

Personally I would bet against that. To me, the line "I'll believe in you or I'll be leaving you tonight" is classic Downie. He's carried those style of homonymesque/double meaning lyrics thorough so many songs. Of course I am drawing a complete blank as to some other examples at the moment, but I would bet that is a Downie song.

That's a great point. I had it in my head that that song was lyrically one of the weaker ones on UTH, but as I look at the lyrics again, I don't think that's the case, and the double meaning in the title/chorus likely seals it as a Downie contribution.

If Sinclair did contribute some of the tunes on UTH then it shows him to be a very serviceable songwriter. Makes me wonder, what if Downie didn't write lyrics? What would the trajectory of the band have been with Sinclair (and maybe Langlois) with pen in hand? You would still have an engaging and energetic front man, and all the musicianship of the band. Could they have separated themselves from the pack with these characteristics alone? Would they simply have become a beloved live act that didn't sell a lot of records? Or am I discounting the chances of Sinclair having matured into a strong writer?

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - andrew sharpe - 09-07-2016

potsie Wrote:
andrew sharpe Wrote:Is that thesis posted anywhere? I'm kinda surprised GD would be this undemocratic, even if he is clearly the best writer. It would have obviously changed the personality of the band but Smalltown Bringdown is a decent enough written song by GS and PL's solo albums have proven him a decent lyricist as well.

Here it is: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://ecommons.usask.ca/bitstream/handle/10388/etd-08112010-144224/PaulAikenheadETD.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y">https://ecommons.usask.ca/bitstream/han ... sAllowed=y</a><!-- m --> And my apologies, it's a master's thesis, not a doctoral thesis. Admittedly I've only skimmed the document but there are Rob Baker quotes sprinkled throughout. The quote I'm directly referencing on song writing is on pages 34 and 35. There is also some interesting discussion of the FC recording process and Rob talks about how Looking for a Place to Happen was banged out in a matter of 2 hours in the basement at a Kingston house party in the winter of 1991/92. Would have loved to have been there!
Thanks for posting. Can't wait to read this. Lucky bastard to have had this accepted as a thesis topic!

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - schaggs - 09-07-2016

potsie Wrote:If Sinclair did contribute some of the tunes on UTH then it shows him to be a very serviceable songwriter. Makes me wonder, what if Downie didn't write lyrics? What would the trajectory of the band have been with Sinclair (and maybe Langlois) with pen in hand? You would still have an engaging and energetic front man, and all the musicianship of the band. Could they have separated themselves from the pack with these characteristics alone? Would they simply have become a beloved live act that didn't sell a lot of records? Or am I discounting the chances of Sinclair having matured into a strong writer?

I think you get the six great albums in a row (UTH -> PP) because of the transition. GD took over lyrics just as the band was hitting it's musical stride, but GS (perhaps) contributed his best lyrics at a time when maybe GD's lyrics hadn't hit their stride yet.

Re: Lyrics Authorship for UTH? - loach - 09-07-2016

While we may never know how the writing was really divided up on UTH, this discussion does give me appreciation for how the band was able to work through an issue that would probably break up a lot of other bands.

I agree that Gord's progress as a writer and a performer was probably critical to the band's success, but as of 1990 that still would have required a leap of faith from the band-mates. Sinclair had a pretty good resume in terms of solid tunes, even though they might not be 'legacy songs' that would still be discussed today if not for the band's later output. Without knowing how it actually went down, it seems to me that it would have required a pretty big gulp of swallowed pride on his part. Makes me wonder if he continued to write lyrics in private for his own amusement, even though it doesn't look like any have seen the light of day since 1989.