For shame, John Amaechi, for shame

For shame, John Amaechi, for shame - Printable Version

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For shame, John Amaechi, for shame - tigerthelion - 02-15-2007

This former NBA player has come out AFTER his playing career as being gay. I personally think Amaechi should be condemned for this action. I don't think he should be condemned for being gay, but he should be condemned for not having the courage to come out as AN ACTIVE PLAYER and for MAKING MONEY FROM IT! Basically, he wrote a book and is profiting from being gay. I didn't know being gay was an accomplishment worthy of financial reward. I think Steve Nash or Kobe Bryant or Dwayne Wade should come out with a book called, "I AM A HETEROSEXUAL" and they should promote the book and make money off of it. It would only be fair.

- opiated - 02-15-2007

are you buddies with tim hardaway?

- lilbones - 02-15-2007

For shame is a little strong.

Yes being gay, as is the same with being straight, is no great accomplishment. But to condemn him for not having the courage to come out when he was playing. You underestimate how tough coming out is, let alone doing so in a professional sports locker room.

As someone who has spent some time in a few such locker rooms, let me assure you they're not the most progressive places on Earth, as evidenced by Tim Hardaway's comments, and to a lesser extent, comments by guys like LeBron James and Stephen Hunter.

And while I agree he's likely only doing this to make money, I also think you're underestimating the importance of having as many gay role models out there for kids. While Amaechi might be being disingenuous when he says he came out because he wanted to open up conversation lines, show that gay men come in different shapes and sizes and give positive reinforcement to young, gay kids, it doesn't mean those things aren't important. And his coming out has definitely accomplished the first two things, even if you're skeptical about the third.

Just my $0.02.

- tigerthelion - 02-15-2007

lilbones Wrote:For shame is a little strong.

Yes being gay, as is the same with being straight, is no great accomplishment. But to condemn him for not having the courage to come out when he was playing. You underestimate how tough coming out is, let alone doing so in a professional sports locker room.

As someone who has spent some time in a few such locker rooms, let me assure you they're not the most progressive places on Earth, as evidenced by Tim Hardaway's comments, and to a lesser extent, comments by guys like LeBron James and Stephen Hunter.

And while I agree he's likely only doing this to make money, I also think you're underestimating the importance of having as many gay role models out there for kids. While Amaechi might be being disingenuous when he says he came out because he wanted to open up conversation lines, show that gay men come in different shapes and sizes and give positive reinforcement to young, gay kids, it doesn't mean those things aren't important. And his coming out has definitely accomplished the first two things, even if you're skeptical about the third.

Just my $0.02.

Firstly, very good post. Well thought out and concise.

Now, my thoughts:

It's easy for him to come out now. Coming out is the easiest thing to do in the universe. Ever since Ellen came out, people have been coming out left, right,and centre, whether they are actually gay or not. :rambo:

I understand it's not easy to come out while being an active player. To my knowledge, nobody in major pro sports has done it yet. However, to have a book about it? It cheapens the act of being a role model when it appears that he is going to make good money from his coming out. If he were to give the money made from the book to some charity or GLAAD or something like that, then maybe I'd give him more credit. How many more gay role models do kids need? Every other actor in Hollywood is coming out. Confused

hock:

Opiated, no I'm not buddies with Hardaway. Tongue

I don't have a problem with what he said though. Whether he's right or wrong, at least he was being honest. I DO have a problem with him apologizing for his comments. Everyone knows he meant what he said. There is no need for him to apologize for being honest. There's nothing wrong with stating that you're homophobic. The NBA banning him from the All-Star facilites is more than a little ridiculously humourous. Of course the NBA doesn't believe in homophobia. The NBA has been so pro-active in encouraging athletes to come out of the closet. :roll: Way to save face, Mr. Stern, way to go. You're fooling them all. :rambo:

Jack Mccalum at SI wrote an article calling Hardaway a "moron". It seems to me that is totally unfair. It seems that Tim Hardaway is being discriminated against as much as John Amaechi. What Jack is basically doing is being intolerant towards people who don't believe in homosexuality. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me. It sounds like anyone who doesn't agree with homosexuality is a "moron" and everyone who does agree is an enlightened individual. :rambo:

- cferneyh - 02-16-2007

I can't say I've been paying too much attention to this nonsense, but didn't Hardaway say he hates homosexuals? But since that's him being "honest", that's OK? Huh? So if someone came out and said they hate Hardaway because he's black, would that be OK because they are being "honest"? Please.

- hotmetal401 - 02-16-2007

Cashing in on your orientation may not be the best way to do things, but having to run from it is even worse. Locker rooms are homosocial environments, argued Michelle Tibideau (I believe -- my essay on the matter is on my other computer). Men will act differently in the locker room, and then over compensate for it later by trying to nail the hottest blonde at the bar. But for all the lewd comments, all the gay jokes they possibly throw at each other, the idea of having a homosexual in their midst is incredibly taboo. It scares people, and has them revert to their primal hatred -- enter Tim Hardaway.

Hardaway's comments are prime example of the reason why people would be afraid to come out while playing. The stigma exists, be it just or not, that there is no place for homosexuals in a men's locker room.

David Stern has made some comments recently that aren't helping the matter. He has dimissed Hardaway from any All Star Break activities, but argues that homosexuality isn't an issue that the league should look at, apart from maybe at rookie camps in the future. The league has been given a golden opportunity to tackle a serious issue in sport, and to be a trendsetter in inclusivity, and are dropping the ball.

By being a league that could show support for people of all orientations, the NBA could break down barriers of discrimination in middle class America (and Canada for that matter -- let's face it people, we're no saints up here either); instead, it'll merely follow government dictates, and continue to use its considerable influence to peddle expensive shoes to people who could never afford them.

Here's a link to an ap article on what Stern is saying. I could be mis reading his words, but I think I get what he's saying. <a class="postlink" href="http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/2007/02/15/3628049-ap.html">http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NB ... 49-ap.html</a>

Cheers,

Pat

- The Darkest Canuck - 02-16-2007

i don't think anyone who isn't gay is truly in a position to criticize this man, because they don't know what it was like to walk in his shoes...at least he came out, and even if he did write the book just for money...that's pretty much why anybody writes anything nowadays anyways...

at least people are talking about this issue more seriously, and i don't see how he's hurting anything, if anything, it's probably really good for this to be out there...

- Zenith - 02-16-2007

Maybe Amaechi did release this book to make money, but compared to some of the 'Autobiographies' that have been released over the recent years it's a literary achivement. At least it actually tackles a serious issue, a man who has something to write about. How the hell wants to read an autobiography from Chantelle ("Who?!" I hear you cry - Believe me, most of Britain are asking themselves the same questions, but apparently she's worthy of having her own autobiography). I'd like to think that the book will also cover his time in the NBA, and how that ties in with his orientation, as opposed to just being about his sexuality.

The professional sports arena is never going to be an easy place to 'come out' in, and it's made even harder when other players condemn you for it...

cferneyh Wrote:I can't say I've been paying too much attention to this nonsense, but didn't Hardaway say he hates homosexuals? But since that's him being "honest", that's OK? Huh? So if someone came out and said they hate Hardaway because he's black, would that be OK because they are being "honest"? Please.

Spot on! Ok, maybe he Hardaway doesn't like Homosexuals - but in the high profile position he's in, did he actually have to comment on it?

Like he said himself:

Quote:"As an African-American, I know all too well the negative thoughts and feelings hatred and bigotry cause"

You'd think he'd learn from others mistakes. People want to make the world a more peaceful, loving and accepting place, yet the people in positions of respect (especially by younger generations) often seem compelled to send us back to square one with comments like that.

- tigerthelion - 02-16-2007

cferneyh Wrote:I can't say I've been paying too much attention to this nonsense, but didn't Hardaway say he hates homosexuals? But since that's him being "honest", that's OK? Huh? So if someone came out and said they hate Hardaway because he's black, would that be OK because they are being "honest"? Please.

Yes it is ok. If someone said they hate Hardaway because he's black, that's their right and they have the freedom to say it. Political correctness is making it impossible to express opinions these days. You darn well know that the majority of NBA players agree with Hardaway's comments. What makes him the villain? Because he didn't decline comment? What is Hardaway supposed to say, that he loves homosexuals? Is he supposed to lie? Perhaps he shouldn't have used the word "hate" but I don't see what the big deal is. Also, are you implying that the plight of the homosexual is on par with the plight of black people? Yeah, when I think of Ellen Degeneres, I like to compare her to Rosa Parks. :roll:

Something that interests me is that nobody ever EVER says anything about the other side of the discussion- the rights of the other players who don't approve of homosexuality. These people are targeted as bigots and racists just for their beliefs. Sure, not everyone is going to come out and speak freely like Hardaway, but if a player has a problem with a homo showering next to him, he shouldn't feel like he is wrong for having those feelings. John Amaechi says that coming out as an active player is forbidden but until a player ACTUALLY DOES IT, how can they speculate? Until someone is courageous enough to say "I'M GAY" while being an active player, nobody knows what the consequences will be. Maybe the players will be against homosexuality but still act like respectable teammates. These people talk like if a player came out as being gay, that his teammates would murder him or something. Confused

hock:

- tigerthelion - 02-16-2007

Zenith Wrote:Maybe Amaechi did release this book to make money, but compared to some of the 'Autobiographies' that have been released over the recent years it's a literary achivement. At least it actually tackles a serious issue, a man who has something to write about. How the hell wants to read an autobiography from Chantelle ("Who?!" I hear you cry - Believe me, most of Britain are asking themselves the same questions, but apparently she's worthy of having her own autobiography). I'd like to think that the book will also cover his time in the NBA, and how that ties in with his orientation, as opposed to just being about his sexuality.

The professional sports arena is never going to be an easy place to 'come out' in, and it's made even harder when other players condemn you for it...

cferneyh Wrote:I can't say I've been paying too much attention to this nonsense, but didn't Hardaway say he hates homosexuals? But since that's him being "honest", that's OK? Huh? So if someone came out and said they hate Hardaway because he's black, would that be OK because they are being "honest"? Please.

Spot on! Ok, maybe he Hardaway doesn't like Homosexuals - but in the high profile position he's in, did he actually have to comment on it?

Like he said himself:

Quote:"As an African-American, I know all too well the negative thoughts and feelings hatred and bigotry cause"

You'd think he'd learn from others mistakes. People want to make the world a more peaceful, loving and accepting place, yet the people in positions of respect (especially by younger generations) often seem compelled to send us back to square one with comments like that.

Hardaway didn't just come out and say "I hate gays". He was asked questions by a radio host. Some people would have declined comment, he didn't. If the question wasn't asked, the comments never would have been made.

BTW, is there something wrong with being opposed to homosexuality? Do people who believe it is immoral have the right to their opinion? The Christian community has been slandered over and over again by gay rights activists. Is this fair?

- Zenith - 02-16-2007

I would like to think that in this day and age, a professional sports person could come out and say they were gay without any fear of reprisal. I agree that we'll never know for sure until someone does it, but with some of the attitudes that still seem to exist it's not making it any easier for anyone to be 'the first'.

tigerthelion Wrote:Hardaway didn't just come out and say "I hate gays". He was asked questions by a radio host. Some people would have declined comment, he didn't. If the question wasn't asked, the comments never would have been made.

But why did he need to say anything? It just creates bad feeling with no benefit to anyone. Ok, maybe he feels proud for expressing his oppinion, but that same expression of oppinion (and the choice of words in particular) has gotten him banned from the All Star Weekend.

tigerthelion Wrote:Also, are you implying that the plight of the homosexual is on par with the plight of black people? Yeah, when I think of Ellen Degeneres, I like to compare her to Rosa Parks.

The scale may be different, but the prinicple is the same. Both are being persecuted against for something over which they have no control.

I'd like to know exactly what makes him feel so 'uncomfortable' around gay people. Amaechi is still the same guy he was before he came out.

- tigerthelion - 02-16-2007

Zenith Wrote:I would like to think that in this day and age, a professional sports person could come out and say they were gay without any fear of reprisal. I agree that we'll never know for sure until someone does it, but with some of the attitudes that still seem to exist it's not making it any easier for anyone to be 'the first'.

tigerthelion Wrote:Hardaway didn't just come out and say "I hate gays". He was asked questions by a radio host. Some people would have declined comment, he didn't. If the question wasn't asked, the comments never would have been made.

But why did he need to say anything? It just creates bad feeling with no benefit to anyone. Ok, maybe he feels proud for expressing his oppinion, but that same expression of oppinion (and the choice of words in particular) has gotten him banned from the All Star Weekend.

tigerthelion Wrote:Also, are you implying that the plight of the homosexual is on par with the plight of black people? Yeah, when I think of Ellen Degeneres, I like to compare her to Rosa Parks.

The scale may be different, but the prinicple is the same. Both are being persecuted against for something over which they have no control.

I'd like to know exactly what makes him feel so 'uncomfortable' around gay people. Amaechi is still the same guy he was before he came out.

Good points. I think being gay is a choice but that is an argument for another day.

I think this article on ESPN says everything that needs to be said:

<a class="postlink" href="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=2766874&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos1">http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/ ... d=tab5pos1</a>

- Zenith - 02-16-2007

tigerthelion Wrote:Good points. I think being gay is a choice but that is an argument for another day.

I think this article on ESPN says everything that needs to be said:

<a class="postlink" href="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=2766874&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos1">http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/ ... d=tab5pos1</a>

Yeah, I think you're right. That article has just about summed it up. I think I'll leave it there.

Thanks for the discussion though, tigerthelio - It brightened up an otherwise slightly dull Friday morning. Wink

:thumb:

- tigerthelion - 02-16-2007

Zenith Wrote:
tigerthelion Wrote:Good points. I think being gay is a choice but that is an argument for another day.

I think this article on ESPN says everything that needs to be said:

<a class="postlink" href="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=2766874&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos1">http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/ ... d=tab5pos1</a>

Yeah, I think you're right. That article has just about summed it up. I think I'll leave it there.

Thanks for the discussion though, tigerthelio - It brightened up an otherwise slightly dull Friday morning. :thumb:

Hey, thanks for having a civil discussion. It's refreshing. :thumb:

Re: For shame, John Amaechi, for shame - second_sight_kyle - 02-16-2007

tigerthelion Wrote:This former NBA player has come out AFTER his playing career as being gay. I personally think Amaechi should be condemned for this action. I don't think he should be condemned for being gay, but he should be condemned for not having the courage to come out as AN ACTIVE PLAYER and for MAKING MONEY FROM IT! Basically, he wrote a book and is profiting from being gay. I didn't know being gay was an accomplishment worthy of financial reward. I think Steve Nash or Kobe Bryant or Dwayne Wade should come out with a book called, "I AM A HETEROSEXUAL" and they should promote the book and make money off of it. It would only be fair.

This from a guy with Fiona and Norah pics in his signature?