Saddam statue - Printable Version
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- CanuckCourage - 12-16-2003
I hope you aced your exam Chris. :thumb: I will start off by saying I feel very passionate about this and so sometimes my comments may have a hint of sarcasm , they are not meant as a personal attack but more of dissipation of controlled rage .
Quote: However, the world sometimes runs according to realpolitik, where the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Iran was the biggest threat to our security,apart from the Soviet Union, and I highly doubt the mullahs running Iran would have been interested in talking or doing business with us.
Iran was the biggest threat to your security , I agree , if by security you mean securing the flow of oil to America .Securing economic and greed based ideals , it wasn't in Americas interests , it was in their corporate giants interests . The mullahs running Iran would not do BUSINESS with you . This philosophy of where the enemy of my enemy is my friend , is a sad political justification for the exploitation of 3rd world countries resources .Civillians suffer immeasureably in countries rich in resources , controlled by tyrants , ignored by the western world , until the "security" of a Nation is threatened , then suddenly these people change from an uncivilzed culture to the victims of suppression who must be rescued by the ever conciencious, freedom givers. Meanwhile dictators are supported by Western Goverments whose Security (profit) is assured , until the pacified dictator gets ideals of self governing, independant self interest (power and greed).
Quote: But that possibility didnt exist and doing so with the time constraints and no history of democratic opposition in Iran or Iraq. You may notice that we didn't invade all the Arabic OPEC countries because their cartel goes against our interests. The U.S. is not alone in supporting monsters out of their own self-interest.
Very true , but this does not justify it .The thing is the US parades this as some great cause , the American people stepping up to save a nation of suppressed people . This has to do with GREED period. Your country is run by corporate giants who control most everything , peoples opinions are formed based from corporate news agencies controlled by corporations who's highest ideal is profit (theres a million :censored things that point to this), it's about greed and power and it couldn't be more obvious .
Quote: Yet it seems America is always to blame. We give out a ton of foreign aid to numerous countries around the world but that isnt appreciated or noticed by critics.
Giving out foreing aid does not excuse the self profiting , dictator propping/dropping of any Country .
Quote: I understand that it looks bad when there is no clear threat against the US(like Saddam having nuclear missiles or threatening to launch germ bombs against Israel), but by his refusal to allow transparent inspections and come clean he shows he wasnt interested in giving up his ambitions to greater land and power. Therefore he had to be removed.
I don't think Saddams reluctance to co-operate was an indication of aggression or aspirations of more aquisitions of more land or power . His army now is pathetic compared to the forces he had in the first gulf war , and they were easily annihilated , obviously no competition for the American Forces . I think his refusal to co-operate was out of anger and arrogance at how his stranglehold on oil and power in the Middle East was weined by trade embargoes and sanctions .
Quote: We aren't perfect and it isnt possible for America to always act perfectly, nor would i expect other countries to always act for the global need of the many, rather than their needs of the few.
Maybe you should expect your country and others to act for the global need of the many Chris , we all should .Why is the brutalizing of a nation for profit is acceptable ? The need of the few are the Corporations , the Billion Dollar corporations , billions on a war while you have people starving to death in your own country , a healthcare system that caters to the rich , look around you , tell me how many signs you see that arent trying to sell you something ? Sports teams raping the population for million dollar athletes , while you step over a homeless person . It's disgusting the attitude we have been conditioned to accept as Freedom and Democracy . Our freedom is thought , once we break out of the paramaters we are told are just and right , only then can our freedom be expressed .
Quote: We would just like some credit where credit is due for helping out others in their time of need and trying to make their world more stable for democracy.Criticising the US all the time isnt going to make us change the policies you disagree with, but acknowledging that we do try to change the world positively would help.
Your Countries helping out of others had nothing to do with their time of need , their time of need was when thousands of children were dying directly from the effect of sanctions that your government refused to relax , while Saddam lived in his palaces , your sanctions killed the innocent , and I say your sanctions because they were US lead , other countries asked to alleviate them but your country refused , as Madelaine Albright put it so succinctly on 60 minutes May 12, 1996: Lesley Stahl asks Albright: "We have heard that a half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. Is the price worth it?" Albright responds: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it." The peoples time of need is never a consideration , only Corporate America's time of Greed, while US citizens are pawns in a campaign of patriotism . I don't think Americans are bad people , I think they can be convinced to do anything if they perceive it to be good , wherein lies their weakness...The manipulation of opinion benifits the power hungry and greedy . Be proud of who you are Chris but don't be fooled by government/military and corporate interest , they are not one with global justice , their paths only cross out of convenience . You are obviously intelligent and a caring person , think outside of implied ideals .
Mark
- CanuckCourage - 04-25-2004
A year later seems like good time to reflect on what's gone on.
Some of the lesser stated facts about the Invasion of Iraq.
$111,700,000,000+ American Dollars used to finance invasion...8900+ Iraqi civilians wiped out... 708 American lives wiped out...13 Months of occupation..2 Assasinated sons of a tyrant...1 Captured Dictator and 1 empty spider hole... 0 Weapons of Mass Destruction... 0 End to conflict in sight, complete acceleration of terrorism and anti-american sentiment.
Justification, lies, propaganda and the never ending rhetoric from one president named Bush...Priceless
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- AmbitionlessHipster - 04-25-2004
wow those are startling statistics.
makes me sick.
Imagine what those people must feel waking up every day to a war-torn hell hole... and the poor children. All in vain.
- thedarkcanuck - 04-25-2004
i am absolutely fed up with politics and it has gottten to the point where i have had my name removed from voting lists....all that is happening is replacing one crooked party with another...i consider politics as legalized mafia...and dont even let me start on bush
- Stephen Dame - 04-26-2004
thedarkcanuck Wrote:i am absolutely fed up with politics and it has gottten to the point where i have had my name removed from voting lists....all that is happening is replacing one crooked party with another...i consider politics as legalized mafia...and dont even let me start on bush
Removing yourself from the process just makes things worse. Those who are not involved in politics are doomed to be ruled by the goofs who are.
Don't give up just yet... There are alternatives, and the upcoming Canadian federal election will be an intensly important one for this country. If you care about health care, federal/provincial funding for services that affect you everyday, accountability in government and indeed the very nature of our relationship internally (Western alienation and Quebec) as well as our foriegn policy, YOU NEED TO VOTE IN THIS ELECTION.
This one will be a watershed. Unfortunately, most people in their comfortable and complacent way (Selfish if you think about it...) will sleep this one through. But hey, if you're frustrated: vote. Vote Conservative, vote Liberal, Vote Jack, Green, Bloq, Marxist whatever... but if you're really fed up and you really want things to change, vote.
- Stephen Dame - 04-26-2004
AmbitionlessHipster Wrote:wow those are startling statistics.
makes me sick.
Imagine what those people must feel waking up every day to a war-torn hell hole... and the poor children. All in vain.
Here's another disturbing stat:
In the initial two years of Vietnam under Kennedy/Johnson, US dead numbered 392. In the first year of Iraq under Bush II, US dead numbered 324 by November 2003, and stand at 720 today.
Vietnam went on to cost 58,000 American lives, and a literally incalcuable amount of civilian and Vietnamese dead last estimated to be "well over" 550,000.
Let's hope this one gets settled right quick...
- AmbitionlessHipster - 04-26-2004
Stephen Dame Wrote:Don't give up just yet... There are alternatives, and the upcoming Canadian federal election will be an intensly important one for this country. If you care about health care, federal/provincial funding for services that affect you everyday, accountability in government and indeed the very nature of our relationship internally (Western alienation and Quebec) as well as our foriegn policy, YOU NEED TO VOTE IN THIS ELECTION.
This one will be a watershed. Unfortunately, most people in their comfortable and complacent way (Selfish if you think about it...) will sleep this one through. But hey, if you're frustrated: vote. Vote Conservative, vote Liberal, Vote Jack, Green, Bloq, Marxist whatever... but if you're really fed up and you really want things to change, vote.
Yeh and then people end up voting for the sole purpose of trying to out-vote the guy they DONT want to have in power.
Sounds like a messed up system to me.
Indecision 2004 - Stephen Dame - 04-26-2004
AmbitionlessHipster Wrote:Stephen Dame Wrote:Don't give up just yet... There are alternatives, and the upcoming Canadian federal election will be an intensly important one for this country. If you care about health care, federal/provincial funding for services that affect you everyday, accountability in government and indeed the very nature of our relationship internally (Western alienation and Quebec) as well as our foriegn policy, YOU NEED TO VOTE IN THIS ELECTION.
This one will be a watershed. Unfortunately, most people in their comfortable and complacent way (Selfish if you think about it...) will sleep this one through. But hey, if you're frustrated: vote. Vote Conservative, vote Liberal, Vote Jack, Green, Bloq, Marxist whatever... but if you're really fed up and you really want things to change, vote.
Yeh and then people end up voting for the sole purpose of trying to out-vote the guy they DONT want to have in power.
Sounds like a messed up system to me.
Nothing wrong with a negative vote. If you feel option ANY is better than option A, than your vote is just as important as the staunch supporter of Option A. Especially if Option A is Dubbya... :lol:
And yes, it is a messed up system. A system designed to refelct the will of the people will only work if the people allow it to. So it's either vote, whichever way that may well be, or allow the system to deteriorate and become the sole posession of special interests and the elderly (Sorry... had to...) But, it is the best system we've got. And if you wanna change it, standing on the sidelines won't do it.
I know it's a cliche, but every vote really does count. In Canada especially, our backwards first past the post system often comes down to double-digit numbers. Anne Maclellan, the current deputy PM, won her riding by less than 100 votes in '93 and '00.
Not to turn all lecture on anybody, but in a Western, post-materialist world where the majority of people are comfortable and the federal election won't in any way impact their groceries, rent, Canadian Idol, Playstation games or other pressing issues, it can be easy to become complacent. Or, as a wise man once said more eloquently: A generation "Raised on TV, with nothing to live or die for, no religion too..."
Not voting or withdrawing from the process neglets the people who actually do depend on soical assitance, the cost of medical care, or the rate of trade tarriffs on a daily basis. There are people whose lives ARE directly affected by the clowns we send to Ottawa. It's selfish to think "We'll it won't change my life, I'm not voting." Ya gotta vote for the folks who are in need, and ya gotta vote to sustain the system if we ever one day hope to change it. (*Alright, off my soapbox*)
Look, I'm not saying it's perfect. But it's what we've got and we can't become selfish or take it for granted or neglect it. Even a protest vote is better than no vote at all, hell it may be more important...
Re: Indecision 2004 - VioletlightHeron - 04-27-2004
Stephen Dame Wrote:Nothing wrong with a negative vote. If you feel option ANY is better than option A, than your vote is just as important as the staunch supporter of Option A. Especially if Option A is Dubbya... :lol:
And yes, it is a messed up system. A system designed to refelct the will of the people will only work if the people allow it to. So it's either vote, whichever way that may well be, or allow the system to deteriorate and become the sole posession of special interests and the elderly (Sorry... had to...) But, it is the best system we've got. And if you wanna change it, standing on the sidelines won't do it.
I know it's a cliche, but every vote really does count. In Canada especially, our backwards first past the post system often comes down to double-digit numbers. Anne Maclellan, the current deputy PM, won her riding by less than 100 votes in '93 and '00.
This is very true, just look at what happened in Florida in '00. Yet, every election system must have some sort of mechanism that allows for a strong minority voice to be heard. The US electoral college system is one of the weirdest systems I've ever studied, but it prevents the big states with large population fromdominating the political system. I'm not even going to get into the debate over the Florida re-count, but lets just say I think the right thing was done there. The commissioner who designed that "butterfly" ballot cost her party votes, and no amount of pleading before the court can or should change that mistake.
Stephen Dame Wrote:Not voting or withdrawing from the process neglets the people who actually do depend on soical assitance, the cost of medical care, or the rate of trade tarriffs on a daily basis. There are people whose lives ARE directly affected by the clowns we send to Ottawa. It's selfish to think "We'll it won't change my life, I'm not voting." Ya gotta vote for the folks who are in need, and ya gotta vote to sustain the system if we ever one day hope to change it. (*Alright, off my soapbox*)
Look, I'm not saying it's perfect. But it's what we've got and we can't become selfish or take it for granted or neglect it. Even a protest vote is better than no vote at all, hell it may be more important...
Even a protest vote for Mickey Mouse is important, cause if enough people get sick of the system and want to change it, by doing so they can throw the election into turmoil and gain a bargaining position.
- CanuckCourage - 05-03-2004
Wtf is a matter with this fucking world. Sick bastards. Two thumbs up for degrading humans. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/">http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/</a><!-- m -->
- VioletlightHeron - 05-03-2004
*sigh* just what the military needs, more everyday Iraqis' pissed off at them. :roll: Part of it I think has to do with the frustration the military feels at the "insurgents" who are hiding behind women and children, using car bombs and other "heroic" tactics. That doesnt excuse or condone their behavior though. I'm glad President Bush has spoken out about this and is letting the military justice system do its work. All it does is make the soldiers out patrolling and other civilian workers' jobs that much harder. Interesting though, I came across an article where a Iraqi would had been imprisioned and tortured by Saddam's government who got the crap kicked out of him, said that the torture done by the Americans made him much angrier.
- prz - 05-07-2004
Its terrible what those soldiers did. But it is important to realize that the US or any other country there cannot stand for that and the soldiers who did that must be punished.
The same thing happened with the now banished 101st Candian Airbourne when they killed that somali Teenager back in 1992.
- Stephen Dame - 05-07-2004
There is certainly no excuse for it, and it just goes to prove that war brings out the worst in humans, regardless of nationality.
An open press reporting on the situation, swift corrective action against those who are responsible, and real assurances and actions to ensure that this won't ever happen again are things that the Candian government (1992) and American government (Now...we hope) must do to prove the Western system despite its flaws, is better than an old clandestine system of torture and punishment under jerks like Saddam.
No excuses. Nothing justifies it. The only question that remains is if Bush will do the right thing, which in my opinion involves all of the above plus tossing Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz out on their asses if a cover-up is proven.
- Summiteer - 05-07-2004
The thing that I'll never ever understand about these sicko's is why in Creators name do you have to pose for the f!@#$ing camera when you do that shit!!! It baffles the hell outta me. like what are they planning on doin with these pix? putting them in the family photo album and reminesing with the fam damily about when they kicked the living snot outta some poor SOB back in odd 4......
- Stephen Dame - 05-07-2004
Summiteer Wrote:The thing that I'll never ever understand about these sicko's is why in Creators name do you have to pose for the f!@#$ing camera when you do that shit!!! It baffles the hell outta me. like what are they planning on doin with these pix? putting them in the family photo album and reminesing with the fam damily about when they kicked the living snot outta some poor SOB back in odd 4......
Yeah, it is odd. You have to think that person taking those shots knew all along what they were going to do with them... and the posers were just swept up in the moment, the feeling of power, and the lure of "Hey! Let me take your picture, this'll be so cool! Show your friends how you kicked Iraqi Ass!" Like I said, brings out the worst...