NHL - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: NHL (/showthread.php?tid=7091)

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- cferneyh - 01-07-2008

tigerthelion Wrote:The real question people should be asking is, "HOW THE HELL DID DOWNIE MAKE IT TO THE NHL?" He's simply not a good player.

I can't say I've paid a lot of attention to Steve Downie's career, but I'm curious as to why you think he's not NHL caliber. His AHL stats look pretty good (17 points in 21 games). And since I've only seen him play one NHL game, I can't really say that I've seen enough of him to form the conclusion that he's not an NHL-worthy player.

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- ryan93 - 01-07-2008

+/- stats really mean nothing to me, i honestly think the stat is WAY overrated. I mean c'mon, i have to look no further than my New York Rangers. Marcel Hossa is leading the team at +7, while Chris Drury is second worst on the team at -7.
Phaneuf, while i'm not sure his offensive game will improve much more, I do believe he'll mature into a better player defensively. I'm not convinced that he'll develop into as dominant a player as Chris Pronger is, but he should eventually be an annual Norris Trophy nominee contender.

Another really good young defensemen that I don't think has received nearly as much press - and i'm not just saying this because i'm a Rangers fan - this season that he deserves is Marc Staal. He's been progessing nicely so far this season, and he shows every sign of being the Rangers top defensemen in the not too distant future. He's not as physical as a guy like Phaneuf, and he may not have quite the offensive abilities as him either, but he's very strong positionally, strong on the puck, extremely calm for a man his age, and he makes a great first pass. He shows signs of being able to contribute offensively, and i think the numbers will come over time. I've been very impressed with him this season.

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- tth_fan - 01-08-2008

tigerthelion Wrote:Says the guy who hates Pronger because he left the Oilers. :?

I'm not an Oilers fan, but ya, the gap in his story when he left Edmonton was a little curious, and a little disheartening for such a hockey crazed community; but this has nothing to do with that.

I just think that Phaneuf is right now better than Pronger was at his age, and he should continue to improve and excel.

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- tigerthelion - 01-08-2008

cferneyh Wrote:

tigerthelion Wrote:Also, he is out of position all the time and looks for the big hit too much.

Countless coaches and scouts will tell you that D is the hardest position to learn, which is why you see so few (if any) young D men who don't have a lot to learn early in their career.

And remember, Pronger wasn't a plus player until his fourth year in the league.

I don't disagree. D is the most difficult position. Hey, you may be right. Phaneuf could very well prove me wrong.

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- tigerthelion - 01-08-2008

tth_fan Wrote:

tigerthelion Wrote:Says the guy who hates Pronger because he left the Oilers. :?

I'm not an Oilers fan, but ya, the gap in his story when he left Edmonton was a little curious, and a little disheartening for such a hockey crazed community; but this has nothing to do with that.

I just think that Phaneuf is right now better than Pronger was at his age, and he should continue to improve and excel.

Fair enough.

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- tigerthelion - 01-08-2008

cferneyh Wrote:

tigerthelion Wrote:The real question people should be asking is, "HOW THE HELL DID DOWNIE MAKE IT TO THE NHL?" He's simply not a good player.

I can't say I've paid a lot of attention to Steve Downie's career, but I'm curious as to why you think he's not NHL caliber. His AHL stats look pretty good (17 points in 21 games). And since I've only seen him play one NHL game, I can't really say that I've seen enough of him to form the conclusion that he's not an NHL-worthy player.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I've only been smart enough in the last few years of my life to realize that being a professional hockey player at the highest level isn't that impressive. I watched a lot of AHL games when I was in Fredericton. I've watched enough NHL games on television. It is clear to me that most players simply aren't too good. I shouldn't have singled Downie out, I suppose. The gap between most NHL players and.....ME........isn't as wide as it rightfully should be. Maybe that explains why, for instance, Sidney Crosby couldn't do a thing in the Mem Cup final game a few years ago but then entered the NHL and scored pretty much at will. When 17 and 18 year olds are shutting down Sid the kid in the biggest game of his career at the time, and then you watch him skate around grown NHL men like pylons only a year later, it makes you wonder what's going on.

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- tigerthelion - 01-08-2008

ryan93 Wrote:+/- stats really mean nothing to me, i honestly think the stat is WAY overrated. I mean c'mon, i have to look no further than my New York Rangers. Marcel Hossa is leading the team at +7, while Chris Drury is second worst on the team at -7.
Phaneuf, while i'm not sure his offensive game will improve much more, I do believe he'll mature into a better player defensively. I'm not convinced that he'll develop into as dominant a player as Chris Pronger is, but he should eventually be an annual Norris Trophy nominee contender.

Another really good young defensemen that I don't think has received nearly as much press - and i'm not just saying this because i'm a Rangers fan - this season that he deserves is Marc Staal. He's been progessing nicely so far this season, and he shows every sign of being the Rangers top defensemen in the not too distant future. He's not as physical as a guy like Phaneuf, and he may not have quite the offensive abilities as him either, but he's very strong positionally, strong on the puck, extremely calm for a man his age, and he makes a great first pass. He shows signs of being able to contribute offensively, and i think the numbers will come over time. I've been very impressed with him this season.

I understand where you're coming from. +/- is can tell a lot about a player if he is -20 every season or +20 year in and year out. Over long periods of time, it is a stat that I think has meaning. However, over a two year or three year period, it doesn't hold as much weight. Look at your Rangers for the perfect example. Malik was a hack in Vancouver but still managed to have good +/- years and is continuing it with NY as far as I know. I Malik really a great defensive defenseman? You also have to take into account that the top 2 defensemen are usually playing against the other team's best offensive players. So, when Pronger or Lidstrom are playing against the Iginla's and Lecavalier's, the other d-men get to play against the second, third, and fourth liners more often. Then, the goalie has to be factored in. If a great d-man is on the ice in front of a goalie who keeps letting in softies, it's not good for the +/-.

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- GBV - 01-09-2008

tth_fan Wrote:

GBV Wrote:

opiated Wrote:shootouts still suck, and i'm worried that the more the press gets behind it, and loves it, the bigger the chance of the shootouts ending up in the playoffs..shootouts should be used only in video games, and even then...they suck

agreed. sure, it's "exciting" but it's gimmicky "excitement."
the xfl comes to mind.
i want my excitement to be authentic.
and it's a joke of a way to award an extra point.
soccer should ditch shootouts too.

Agreed. The Italian victory in the last World Cup wasn't that exciting in the shootout...I find golden goal a lot more exciting in hockey and in soccer...which is why I love the continuous OT in the playoffs

totally agree. soccer is the ultimate team game and to decide it on what's basically a coin toss is a joke.
the argument is "well, they can't play forever...they could die out there in the heat."
to which i say, well, if they KNEW they had to score a real, authentic goal to win, maybe they wouldn't put 10 guys in the box in the hope for a shootout.
and if they're worried about heat etc. (which is fair), let them have more substitutes at the start of overtime.

golden goal rocked...not sure why they reverted to the old style again.
but seriously, abolish penalty kicks. it's an embarrassment and proves nothing...other than that team got lucky on that day and the other didn't.

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- robert goulet - 01-09-2008

tigerthelion Wrote:I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I've only been smart enough in the last few years of my life to realize that being a professional hockey player at the highest level isn't that impressive. I watched a lot of AHL games when I was in Fredericton. I've watched enough NHL games on television. It is clear to me that most players simply aren't too good. I shouldn't have singled Downie out, I suppose. The gap between most NHL players and.....ME........isn't as wide as it rightfully should be. Maybe that explains why, for instance, Sidney Crosby couldn't do a thing in the Mem Cup final game a few years ago but then entered the NHL and scored pretty much at will. When 17 and 18 year olds are shutting down Sid the kid in the biggest game of his career at the time, and then you watch him skate around grown NHL men like pylons only a year later, it makes you wonder what's going on.

I would say that there is a huge difference between you and NHL players...having never seen you play, I can comfortably say that you aren't even close...and I say this with the utmost respect to you as a person, but I really think you underestimate just what it truly takes to make it, having played some high-end hockey, let me say based on my experiences, that there is a huge gap between your average AHL player and your average NHL player.

Sure there are some players that you look at and scratch your head and say "how the hell did this guy make it" Look no further than a few guys on my beloved Leafs, but make no mistake about it, these guys are incredible hockey players.

Back to your Crosby comment... to single out Sid's performance or lack thereof in 1 game, regardless of the importance is a little shortsighted. Remember Ovechkin against Canada in the World Juniors?? Remember Malkin against Canada in the World Juniors?? These guys were dominated in those big games but I shudder to think of what all 3 of those guys would do to you (or the majority of the NHL) on a one-on-one drill.

Just my 0.02.

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- tigerthelion - 01-09-2008

robert goulet Wrote:

tigerthelion Wrote:I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I've only been smart enough in the last few years of my life to realize that being a professional hockey player at the highest level isn't that impressive. I watched a lot of AHL games when I was in Fredericton. I've watched enough NHL games on television. It is clear to me that most players simply aren't too good. I shouldn't have singled Downie out, I suppose. The gap between most NHL players and.....ME........isn't as wide as it rightfully should be. Maybe that explains why, for instance, Sidney Crosby couldn't do a thing in the Mem Cup final game a few years ago but then entered the NHL and scored pretty much at will. When 17 and 18 year olds are shutting down Sid the kid in the biggest game of his career at the time, and then you watch him skate around grown NHL men like pylons only a year later, it makes you wonder what's going on.

I would say that there is a huge difference between you and NHL players...having never seen you play, I can comfortably say that you aren't even close...and I say this with the utmost respect to you as a person, but I really think you underestimate just what it truly takes to make it, having played some high-end hockey, let me say based on my experiences, that there is a huge gap between your average AHL player and your average NHL player.

Sure there are some players that you look at and scratch your head and say "how the hell did this guy make it" Look no further than a few guys on my beloved Leafs, but make no mistake about it, these guys are incredible hockey players.

Back to your Crosby comment... to single out Sid's performance or lack thereof in 1 game, regardless of the importance is a little shortsighted. Remember Ovechkin against Canada in the World Juniors?? Remember Malkin against Canada in the World Juniors?? These guys were dominated in those big games but I shudder to think of what all 3 of those guys would do to you (or the majority of the NHL) on a one-on-one drill.

Just my 0.02.

About Crosby, I agree that I did single out one game and it was shortsighted. I agree that I was being overly dramatic and I knew that someone would take me to task about it. It was a stretch, I know, but I was on a roll.

See, Malkin, Crosby, and Ovechkin would do some nasty things to me and the majority of the NHL on a one on one drill. That is kind of my point, though. Those three players are guys that are supremely talented. It's the "majority of the NHL" that I'm talking about. A lot of players can't even take a proper shot for cripe's sake! A lot of NHL players make mistakes continually throughout A CAREER that a junior B player would correct after a few times doing the same thing.

As for our bet, I think Antropov and Nazzy are tied at 15 goals. It's a nip and tuck battle so far!!!

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- robert goulet - 01-10-2008

tigerthelion Wrote:=
As for our bet, I think Antropov and Nazzy are tied at 15 goals. It's a nip and tuck battle so far!!!

I can't believe how close this wager has played itself out thus far. Antropov is on pace for a career year, and he actually has a 1 goal lead on Nazzy 15-14 at the time of this post. Even though Antropov is currently in a dry spell, he is poised to crush his season high record for both, games played, and most importantly, goals scored.

Forza 80!!!!

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- skippy the wonder dog - 01-11-2008

I love sportswriting. Where else in journalism can you do stuff like this?

Two of the people responsible for those decisions got a close look at the cesspool of despair this team has become, as Leafs general manager John Ferguson and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment president Richard Peddie are on this California death march.

Bwahahahahaha!!!

That's from the Globe, by the way.

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- ryan93 - 01-11-2008

Ouch, the Leafs have been outscored 10-2 the last two nights. How bad are things going for my teams right now! The Rangers continued their freefall down the standings last night with a 6-2 loss to the Flyers. After the Rangers, my next 2 favorite teams would be the Tampa Bay Lightning & Toronto Maple Leafs!

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- cferneyh - 01-11-2008

Pretty friggin' ugly, that's for sure. When it is all said and done, I think the Blake contract might actually be worse than McCabe's. I never realized just how one-dimensional that guy is. He's utterly useless in the defensive zone, as he makes half-assed efforts to get to loose pucks or consistently loses battles for the puck all over the ice. And, based on the number of shots he takes from the top of the faceoff circle, it seems to me that he thinks he's Kovalchuk, rather than a grinder who needs to go into the dirty areas and whack away at rebounds. Bah.

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- tigerthelion - 01-11-2008

robert goulet Wrote:

tigerthelion Wrote:=
As for our bet, I think Antropov and Nazzy are tied at 15 goals. It's a nip and tuck battle so far!!!

I can't believe how close this wager has played itself out thus far. Antropov is on pace for a career year, and he actually has a 1 goal lead on Nazzy 15-14 at the time of this post. Even though Antropov is currently in a dry spell, he is poised to crush his season high record for both, games played, and most importantly, goals scored.

Forza 80!!!!

I'm beginning to think that my only saving grace will be the stipulation that each player must play a minimum of 70 games. That looks like the only way I'm getting out of losing this bet. hock: I have a strong dislike for Naslund as a player. I don't understand why he wears the "C". He's either falling down on the ice or sulking on the bench. He embarasses the entire Canucks organization with every shootout attempt he takes.

Is it too early to begin my 'BRING SUNDIN TO VANCOUVER' petition? :? They need S C O R I N G.

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