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- clearlyentranced - 11-27-2007

BREAKING NEWS - John Ferguson attempted to fire Paul Maurice - SPORTSNET

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Sportsnet.ca - Chaos continues to surround the Maple Leafs, as it has been reported that general manager John Ferguson attempted to fire head coach Paul Maurice last week but was not allowed to do so.

As discussed in Monday's Toronto Sun, several sources confirmed with the paper that the Leafs are frantically searching for Ferguson's replacement.

It has been reported that in recent days, informal talks have been had with ex-Leaf goaltender Glenn Healy, as well as NHL vice-president Colin Campbell.

Other rumoured candidates in a revamped front office include Mark Messier, Steve Yzerman and Ron Francis.

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- cochise - 11-27-2007

clearlyentranced Wrote:BREAKING NEWS - John Ferguson attempted to fire Paul Maurice - SPORTSNET

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2007/11/26/leafs_chaos/">http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2007/11/26/leafs_chaos/</a><!-- m -->

Sportsnet.ca - Chaos continues to surround the Maple Leafs, as it has been reported that general manager John Ferguson attempted to fire head coach Paul Maurice last week but was not allowed to do so.

As discussed in Monday's Toronto Sun, several sources confirmed with the paper that the Leafs are frantically searching for Ferguson's replacement.

It has been reported that in recent days, informal talks have been had with ex-Leaf goaltender Glenn Healy, as well as NHL vice-president Colin Campbell.

Other rumoured candidates in a revamped front office include Mark Messier, Steve Yzerman and Ron Francis.

So many rumours floating around right now. I hope that it is a sign something will be done. However, the concept of Maurice being to balme for coaching the team he was given is almost laughable. Granted maybe he could do a bit better, but its pretty hard to get water from a stone.

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- clearlyentranced - 11-27-2007

I bet we'll have a change by the end of the week.

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- cochise - 11-27-2007

clearlyentranced Wrote:I bet we'll have a change by the end of the week.

Being a Leafs fan, I for once hope the Habs blow the doors of the Leafs tonight just to keep the pressure on this organization. The last thing we need now is a game for which upper management can say once again "see, we won a game, this team is doing a turn around, we will be in the play-offs"............

I for one hope the pressure keeps building until the whole organization blows up so we can start a rebuild.

I hate using the term "rebuild" because it implies that it was once built in the first place.........

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- clearlyentranced - 11-27-2007

I was listening to the radio and they were interviewing JFJ, he seemed to be under the impression that his job was just fine. They admitted they were doing terrible, but he thought they could dig themselves out of the hole.

Richard Peddie was interviewed afterwards. He denied everything. We'll have to see how it plays out.

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- cferneyh - 11-27-2007

skippy, remotely Wrote:

das_hips Wrote:das_hips: me think Alfie is a good player, and a good captain
cferneyh: me no agree; me talk like primate...

This is hardly surprising, given that both of you are, in fact, primates.

Don't tell tth_fan that. He'll get confused. Again.

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- cferneyh - 11-27-2007

das_hips Wrote:I'm not sure I follow. You initially provided that Jacques Martin had an impedance on the teams offensive abilities while Alfredsson played on the same team as Hossa, and Havlat. Disregarding that they rarely played on the same line

You know what I recommend you do to see just how poor your "they rarely played on the same line" argument is? Go here.

Then click on any of the games where Alfie had points. Note:

* Daniel Alfredsson 1 (Martin Havlat)
* Wade Redden 1 (power play) (Daniel Alfredsson, Martin Havlat)

So, in two of Alfie's three points in that series featured assists from Havlat.
Granted, as skippy would call me out on, this is a very small sample size (given it was yet another playoff loss to the Leafs), and I don't have the time nor inclination to see just what percentage of his points involved Hossa or Havlat on the ice with him, but just clicking on a few random games I found:

- Martin Havlat 29 (power play) (Daniel Alfredsson, Radek Bonk)

and

- Wade Redden 15 (power play) (Daniel Alfredsson, Marian Hossa)

and, even when I go back to the beginning of the season:

- Radek Bonk 3 (power play) (Daniel Alfredsson, Marian Hossa)

Am I cherry picking here? Absolutely. There are plenty of non-Hossa and non-Havlat goals that Alfie is on (hell, I'd already forgotten that Peter Bondra was a Sen for a bit), but your efforts to suggest that Alfie played in some non-Hossa and non-Havlat vacuum us absurd. It is pretty clear - from a few random clicks - that while they may have not played a regular shift together, they obviously spent some time on PP together. In fact, if I remember correctly, didn't Alfie QB that PP?

das_hips Wrote:your argument then became that Alfredsson has benefitted from the emergence of Spezza and Heatley. After which, you simply ignored that and claimed that Heatley and Spezza were better players than Havlat and Hossa. You argued that Alfredsson's numbers were better since the departure of Martin because the team no longer employed a defense-first approach, and then eliminated that as rationality.

Well that's a fun little attempt you've made at trying to manipulate the sequence of events. I also like that you clipped part of my quote (about Martin), but not the whole thing, which was:

cferneyh Wrote:Since the 2004 season, his production has picked up. I think there are a lot of factors that have contributed to this - the "new" NHL, the Sens firing Jacques Martin (and dropping Martin's "defense first" approach), and - most importantly - the maturation of Jason Spezza.

So when/where/how has my argument changed? I point to a number of pretty obvious factors. You took issue with me attributing Alfie's increased production to Spezza. In fact, you said it was perhaps the other way around, which is kinda funny given that you later claim they rarely play together. I guess just having Alfie on the bench makes Spezza tap into his true potential, if you are to believed. :lol:

das_hips Wrote:Regarding the notion that Ottawa has had superior offensive depth than that of a Calgary, or Toronto, or whoever, I won't disagree.

Wait....you took issue with my pointing out that Alfie has always been surrounded by better talent, but you agree that Alfie has always been surrounded by better talent?!?

das_hips Wrote:When a third line (I think they call it an 'energy' line these days) scores a goal, it is against an opponents third line. To assert that when Alfredsson has scored, or done well against an opponent is done against a somewhat inferior line is probably without justification. If Ottawa were to play a low-scoring team, that team would most certainly apply a defensive approach to all elements of the game. When a top line, or a second line is on the ice, it is either matched by equal offensive talent, or a line consisting of defensive forwards (see Stanley Cup Finals, 2007).

Uh, that's kinda my point. Sundin is going to face the other team's #1 line, or best checking centre, each and every shift. Is Alfie? Or would the opposing coach reserve that player/line for the Spezza line? And, remember, it is YOUR argument that they rarely play together, and we can agree that Spezza's line is the #1 line, no?

das_hips Wrote:Is it beyond comprehension that an NHL player would take a financially sound contract (5-8 years at that. How many players did the same that year, or have done so since?)

cferneyh Wrote:Brad Richards
Martin St. Louis
Chris Pronger
Scott Niedermayer
Joe Thornton
Martin Brodeur

And that's just off the top of my head.

das_hips Wrote:You mentioned players who signed contracts for several years who are being paid more than Alfredsson (with the exception of St. Louis),

Uh, they are being paid more because they signed their contracts after Alfredsson did. Again, do I again need to remind you of the concept of market rates? NHL salaries continue to increase, not decrease, which is why Bryan McCabe is getting paid more than d-men who signed deals prior to his. Accordingly, since each of these players signed after Alfie, it is only logical they will get more.

das_hips Wrote:and whose contracts are generally much shorter than those of Alfredsson's.

Much shorter? Huh?

Brad Richards - 5 years
Martin St. Louis - 6 years
Chris Pronger - 5 years
Scott Niedermayer - 4 years
Joe Thornton - added 3 years when there was still a year left, making it 4 years
Martin Brodeur - 6 years.

das_hips Wrote:

cferneyh Wrote:Also, I think it is kind of funny that you think Alfie's deal was all about doing what he could to stay when he structured his deal to get a $7.5 million signing bonus, mere months before the lockout. Seems to me that someone (or someone's agent) was expecting salaries to drop, or plateau, with the new CBA and as such made sure he got as much up front as he could. Funny that.

.

Months before the lockout? Yes, you're correct. Month's before the introduction of the roll-back? Nope.

No, just a few months before it was widely acknowledged that it was going to be a long drawn out battle, and Goodenow told players that they should be prepared to sit out for two seasons. Just before all that, Alfie cashed in a $7.5 million bonus cheque. Considering his role on the bargaining committee, I hardly see that as a coincidence. I'm curious to know if you know of any other players who took huge signing bonuses just before the lockout. If you can't accept that it was a calculated risk that has come back to bite him in the ass, that's fine. But it's pretty clear that that is exactly what it was.

das_hips Wrote:Daniel Alfredsson is making half of that of Dany Heatley next season. Is Dany Heatley going to be over-paid? Perhaps a bit, yes. Is Daniel Alfredsson going to be underpaid (even at your $6.5 million calculation), definitely.

Again, I never argued that. I argued your assertion that he took a paycut to stay in Ottawa. He didn't. While you've done your best to try and twist arguments, or turn the argument into something else, etc, the simple fact of the matter is his deal averaged out to a contract that was indicative of his value to the team at that time. The 24% rollback, the $7.5 million signing bonus, his increased production, and escalating salaries have all contributed to make that deal look bad (for him) now, but at the time it was well within the range of similar contracts being handed out. Despite your efforts to move this discussion elsewhere, or misrepresenting the basic facts of his contract, the simple fact remains - he took a deal at market rates. No more, no less.

das_hips Wrote:Daniel Alfredsson is the first European Captain to take his team to the Stanley Cup. That must hurt.

First European Captain to lose the Stanley Cup too!

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- robert goulet - 11-27-2007

This could be the greatest debate/battle in Hipbase history...I'm consistently blown away by CFern's uncanny ability to pull a stat out of his ass for every single argument possible no matter the topic and somehow find a way to tie it in to his point succinctly. You must be in Market Research.

If I didn't agree with you so often I too would be frustrated trying to counter your arguments.

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- tth_fan - 11-27-2007

cferneyh Wrote:

skippy, remotely Wrote:

das_hips Wrote:das_hips: me think Alfie is a good player, and a good captain
cferneyh: me no agree; me talk like primate...

This is hardly surprising, given that both of you are, in fact, primates.

Don't tell tth_fan that. He'll get confused. Again.

No, I get it. Doesn't take a genius, which you just proved, because you seem to get it...unless you need me to explain it to you (you can just PM me, if it's less embarassing)

btw, I have never seen a team in such dissaray from the players to the management like we've seen this season in Toronto. Did anybody else see Hal Gill take his frustration out on Blake the other day?! That was a bit ridiculous.

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- cferneyh - 11-27-2007

das_hips Wrote:das_hips: me think Alfie is a good player, and a good captain
cferneyh: me no agree; me talk like primate...

a confused tth_fan Wrote:I love how you somehow found a way to insult cfern,

skippy, remotely Wrote:This is hardly surprising, given that both of you are, in fact, primates.

cferneyh Wrote:Don't tell tth_fan that. He'll get confused

Then, a backtracking tth_fan Wrote:No, I get it.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure you do. Especially since you originally stated it was an "insult".

Then, ironically, tth_fan Wrote:Doesn't take a genius,

Should we just assume you developed your debating skills by taking whatever class chicagoblackhawks77 teaches?

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- Lizard King - 11-27-2007

Price is right baby!!! Wooo!

Dam that Sundin, what a pain in the ass he's been to us over the years, I cant wait for him to retire.. :lol: I have to tip my hat to him on 400, the guy can play.

Im just glad we got the points. GO HABS GO!!!

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- tth_fan - 11-27-2007

Montreal gave the Leafs a point at the end of the third there, but they won in style in the shootout. I agree about Sundin, he sure has the Habs' number. At the same time, Montreal stuck with it and pulled off a nice victory.
I sold Huet on my fantasy team the other day, cause I don't know if he'll be playing a ton of games the way Price has been playing of late.

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- The Darkest Canuck - 11-27-2007

are we ever Canadian in here lol, this thread is getting SPICY haha...


helluva a game tonight, Saturdaynight excitement on a Tuesday...ain't a damn thing wrong with that .

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- opiated - 11-28-2007

just to remind this thread there are other teams in the league..

NUCKS WIN!!!! NUCKS WIN!!!

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- das_hips - 11-28-2007

cferneyh Wrote:

das_hips Wrote:I'm not sure I follow. You initially provided that Jacques Martin had an impedance on the teams offensive abilities while Alfredsson played on the same team as Hossa, and Havlat. Disregarding that they rarely played on the same line

You know what I recommend you do to see just how poor your "they rarely played on the same line" argument is? Go here.

That is a handy reference you have found. While I certainly am not going to undertake a project to prove that Alfredsson never collected a point with any of the 'star' players on the Ottawa Senators in 2003-04 (I'd expect more succesful results from selling my pubic hair on Ebay) you yourself said

cferneyh Wrote:Granted, as skippy would call me out on, this is a very small sample size (given it was yet another playoff loss to the Leafs), and I don't have the time nor inclination to see just what percentage of his points involved Hossa or Havlat on the ice with him

...and...

cferneyh Wrote:Am I cherry picking here? Absolutely. There are plenty of non-Hossa and non-Havlat goals that Alfie is on (hell, I'd already forgotten that Peter Bondra was a Sen for a bit), but your efforts to suggest that Alfie played in some non-Hossa and non-Havlat vacuum us absurd.

I never mentioned anything about the power-play. Let's be realistic here. Obviously, and this is beyond even the necessity to provide this, Ottawa's top forwards and defencemen are going to play on the power play. While you want to bring this into the discussion, I hardly see how it has anything to do with what I initally wrote, unless, of course, Mats Sundin, and Jarome Iginla play on some sort of decrepit power-play unit.

I looked at every game that Daniel Alfredsson played, and scored more than one point from January onwards in that season (a more reasonable sample), and found that, of those thirty points:

Marian Hossa was a contributor on four occasions, all on the power-play.
Martin Havlat was a contributor twice, both on the power-play.
Todd White, Bryan Smolinski, and Mike Fisher combined for 17 points in situations that did not involve the power-play. Tood White, Bryan Smolinski? A career second liner who is having a respectable year in Atlanta, a third line centre in Montreal. Not the the most offensively gifted forwards.

cferneyh Wrote:So when/where/how has my argument changed? I point to a number of pretty obvious factors. You took issue with me attributing Alfie's increased production to Spezza. In fact, you said it was perhaps the other way around, which is kinda funny given that you later claim they rarely play together. I guess just having Alfie on the bench makes Spezza tap into his true potential, if you are to believed. :lol:

das_hips Wrote:When a third line (I think they call it an 'energy' line these days) scores a goal, it is against an opponents third line. To assert that when Alfredsson has scored, or done well against an opponent is done against a somewhat inferior line is probably without justification. If Ottawa were to play a low-scoring team, that team would most certainly apply a defensive approach to all elements of the game. When a top line, or a second line is on the ice, it is either matched by equal offensive talent, or a line consisting of defensive forwards (see Stanley Cup Finals, 2007).

cferneyh Wrote:Uh, that's kinda my point. Sundin is going to face the other team's #1 line, or best checking centre, each and every shift. Is Alfie? Or would the opposing coach reserve that player/line for the Spezza line? And, remember, it is YOUR argument that they rarely play together, and we can agree that Spezza's line is the #1 line, no?

That wasn't what I wrote.

das_hips Wrote:And regarding the line combinations, clearly having Spezza, and especially Heatley on the line has helped Alfredsson, but you're ignoring the implication that he has made them better players as well. You're also ignoring the fact that Alfredsson played only a little more than half the year with that crowd last year, virtually none the year before, and neither were present before that.

.
So, yes. Alfredsson does currently play against the top checking line, or top offensive forwards. However, in the past, when his numbers were lower, it was likely against one of the two lines that didn't play against the top line, that being either the generic 'checking' line, or or the opponents most offensively gifted line.

Just to summarize,

das_hips Wrote:Regarding the notion that Ottawa has had superior offensive depth than that of a Calgary, or Toronto, or whoever, I won't disagree.

and this

das_hips Wrote:When a third line (I think they call it an 'energy' line these days) scores a goal, it is against an opponents third line. To assert that when Alfredsson has scored, or done well against an opponent is done against a somewhat inferior line is probably without justification.

were written to suggest that while Ottawa may have more depth than other teams, that has little impact on the the top, or top two lines, using the rationale that this additional depth will only benefit the team as a whole, by assuming that the third and fourth lines have more potential to be successful. The top line, or top two lines will always face the opponents best lines. It is the depth on the third and forth lines that I accept, but I will not contend that that is of substantial benefit to the top lines for the reason I provided.

das_hips Wrote:Is it beyond comprehension that an NHL player would take a financially sound contract (5-8 years at that. How many players did the same that year, or have done so since?)

das_hips Wrote:You mentioned players who signed contracts for several years who are being paid more than Alfredsson (with the exception of St. Louis),

cferneyh Wrote:Uh, they are being paid more because they signed their contracts after Alfredsson did. Again, do I again need to remind you of the concept of market rates?

Thanks for the brief introduction to economics. I was specifically looking for a response to the bolded portion of my previous quotation, to which you provided a bolded response that is in contradiction to half of my question. You did provide contracts that were negotiated after that, so I suppose that you and your immense knowledge in macroeconomics have won this round.

das_hips Wrote:

cferneyh Wrote:Also, I think it is kind of funny that you think Alfie's deal was all about doing what he could to stay when he structured his deal to get a $7.5 million signing bonus, mere months before the lockout. Seems to me that someone (or someone's agent) was expecting salaries to drop, or plateau, with the new CBA and as such made sure he got as much up front as he could. Funny that.

.
Months before the lockout? Yes, you're correct. Month's before the introduction of the roll-back? Nope.

cferneyh Wrote:No, just a few months before it was widely acknowledged that it was going to be a long drawn out battle, and Goodenow told players that they should be prepared to sit out for two seasons.

I'm sorry, had the suggestion of the 24% rollback even been brought to the forefront of the NHL/NHLPA negotiations, let alone a common understanding that the 2004-05 season would be cancelled? Granted a 5% rollback had been suggested by the PA in 2003, I'm not sure Alfredsson, or his agent had any reason to expect a 24% rollback. Alfredsson signed his contract in late March of 2004, six months before the following season would have started, 11 months before that season was cancelled, and 16 months before the NHL/NHLPA agreed to a deal, that included the 24% rollback.

cferneyh Wrote:Again, I never argued that. I argued your assertion that he took a paycut to stay in Ottawa. He didn't. While you've done your best to try and twist arguments, or turn the argument into something else, etc, the simple fact of the matter is his deal averaged out to a contract that was indicative of his value to the team at that time.

I was actually arguing that Daniel Alfredsson is a better captain than Mats Sundin (although he looked quite heroic last night, as he does many nights). While we can continue to argue about his salary, it should be noted that this was not the intent of my original comment, nor really a point of any substance.

das_hips Wrote:Daniel Alfredsson is the first European Captain to take his team to the Stanley Cup. That must hurt.

cferneyh Wrote:First European Captain to lose the Stanley Cup too!

Touche...

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