NHL - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: NHL (/showthread.php?tid=7091)

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- cferneyh - 11-27-2005

opiated Wrote:but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...

Oh how I love blanket statements like that. So Bryan Trottier and his six Stanley Cup rings mean nothing because he was never the captain of the Isles or Penguins. And I guess the leadership of Dave Andreychuk made him much more valuable than Jarome Iginla during the 03/04 playoffs. Comical.

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- ryan93 - 11-27-2005

I'm a diehard New York Rangers fan, so of course i saw Malik's goal last night! That turned into quite the shootout! Ville Nieminen needed to score in about the 7th round or it was all over, and although Kolzig didn't give him much to shoot out, he mananged to just squeek it by him and into the back of the net. The highlight for me though came in the 14th round, the Caps had finally scored and it all came down to Jason Strudwick. Strudwick had played well for the Ranger when given an oppurtunity, but our top 6 have been so solid that he hasn't been able to get back into the line-up. Finally two nights ago with Fedor Tyutin out with an injury he got back into the lineup and played very well. Last night Tyutin was back so Strudwick was moved up to forward. Anyways Strudwick needed to score to keep it alive and he did! His skate back to the bench and the celebration was one of the best moments of the season for me so far.
Our super rookie stopper Henrik Lundqvist then shut the door in round 15, leading to my pond hockey move goal scored by Marek Malik. Malik doesn't have a goal yet this season and was the third last player left on our roster (Darius Kasparaitis & Fedor Tyutin the others....Tom Poti had left the game with an injury). Very dramatic finish and the Rangers are now 16-7-3
9 games over .500...it's been a long time since i've been able to say that...try 10 long years!

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- tigerthelion - 11-27-2005

cferneyh Wrote:

opiated Wrote:but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...

Oh how I love blanket statements like that. So Bryan Trottier and his six Stanley Cup rings mean nothing because he was never the captain of the Isles or Penguins. And I guess the leadership of Dave Andreychuk made him much more valuable than Jarome Iginla during the 03/04 playoffs. Comical.

Well, Andreychuk does get a lot of press for being a good leader. I'm not saying that's right. That's just the way it works in the sports' media. It's the nature of the beast. I think Andreychuk has been a scrub for the last 8 years but he gets credit for winning the Cup. Andreychuk was just on the right team at the right time IMO, but you can never take away his cup and the media will bring it up constantly. Ray Bourque was deified like never before after he won his Cup with Colorado. That's the way it goes. The media has every right to criticize players for not winning a Cup. It may not be fair, but winning a Cup is almost a requirement to be called a legend, with only a few exceptions.

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- cferneyh - 11-28-2005

tigerthelion Wrote:

cferneyh Wrote:

opiated Wrote:but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...

Oh how I love blanket statements like that. So Bryan Trottier and his six Stanley Cup rings mean nothing because he was never the captain of the Isles or Penguins. And I guess the leadership of Dave Andreychuk made him much more valuable than Jarome Iginla during the 03/04 playoffs. Comical.

Well, Andreychuk does get a lot of press for being a good leader. I'm not saying that's right. I'm just saying that's the way it works in sports. It's the nature of the beast. I think Andreychuk has been a scrub for the last 8 years but he gets credit for winning the Cup. Ray Bourque was deified like never before after he won his Cup with Colorado. That's the way it goes.

But Bourque wasn't the CAPTAIN, so according to The Hipbase Leadership and Captaincy rules of Professional Sports, it doesn't count.

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- tigerthelion - 11-28-2005

cferneyh Wrote:

tigerthelion Wrote:

cferneyh Wrote:

opiated Wrote:but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...

Oh how I love blanket statements like that. So Bryan Trottier and his six Stanley Cup rings mean nothing because he was never the captain of the Isles or Penguins. And I guess the leadership of Dave Andreychuk made him much more valuable than Jarome Iginla during the 03/04 playoffs. Comical.

Well, Andreychuk does get a lot of press for being a good leader. I'm not saying that's right. I'm just saying that's the way it works in sports. It's the nature of the beast. I think Andreychuk has been a scrub for the last 8 years but he gets credit for winning the Cup. Ray Bourque was deified like never before after he won his Cup with Colorado. That's the way it goes.

But Bourque wasn't the CAPTAIN, so according to The Hipbase Leadership and Captaincy rules of Professional Sports, it doesn't count.

Well, you could replace the word "leader" with "one of the main contributors".

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- cferneyh - 11-28-2005

tigerthelion Wrote:

cferneyh Wrote:

tigerthelion Wrote:

cferneyh Wrote:

opiated Wrote:but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...

Oh how I love blanket statements like that. So Bryan Trottier and his six Stanley Cup rings mean nothing because he was never the captain of the Isles or Penguins. And I guess the leadership of Dave Andreychuk made him much more valuable than Jarome Iginla during the 03/04 playoffs. Comical.

Well, Andreychuk does get a lot of press for being a good leader. I'm not saying that's right. I'm just saying that's the way it works in sports. It's the nature of the beast. I think Andreychuk has been a scrub for the last 8 years but he gets credit for winning the Cup. Ray Bourque was deified like never before after he won his Cup with Colorado. That's the way it goes.

But Bourque wasn't the CAPTAIN, so according to The Hipbase Leadership and Captaincy rules of Professional Sports, it doesn't count.

Well, you could replace the word "leader" with "one of the main contributors".

But wait - you are saying that it takes more "contributors" and more than one "leader" to win a Cup? NO WAY!

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- j-monster - 11-28-2005

tigerthelion Wrote:

opiated Wrote:

cferneyh Wrote:

tigerthelion Wrote:Sundin is a very good player. Why do you have to defend him so much?

Uh, probably because when I read comments like "he's a failure" I feel the need to set the record straight. If someone pissed all over your favourite player you'd just let it go?

as a Steve Young fan, i heard about it all the time until he won the big game...that, and young had some huge shoes to fill, but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...

Exactly, that's just the way it is in sports. You have to win to get all the accolades. Heck, I think Charles Barkley is one of the top two or three PF's to ever play basketball but he's always going to deal with the fact that he didn't win the big one. I started becoming a Suns' fan when Barkley was traded to the land of the rising sun.

It isn't life or death though. If Sundin never wins the big one, he'll have to deal with a few fans but he'll have millions and millions of reasons to be happy.

I think over the last four years, Naslund has been a better player than Sundin but he hasn't won a Cup. I have no problem with criticism of Naslund because the fact is he hasn't won a Cup yet. Once Manning wins a Super Bowl, you'll start hearing him being mentioned as the best QB in history. He isn't talked about in that category yet because he hasn't won yet.

Tom Brady is considered by most people to be the best QB in football at the moment because he's won 3 SB's. Manning always has better numbers but Brady has the rings.

I just have to add my two cents to this piece. To compare Sundin as a captain to Brady or Manning or a captain/leader in basketball in terms of championships/adeptness as a leader is pretty unfair. In basketball a captain/great player will play almost the whole game, if not the whole game, so he will always have an impact on how his team does. A QB has an impact in all his team's plays on offense, which can be half the game or more. As a captain, Sundin plays, at most, 20 minutes per game, and often plays less (he should play more, but that's another story). That means he can only have an impact for, at most, one third of the game, which is less than football or basketball. Hockey is a sport where more than others you need all of your teammates to help you gain success. This is why, in Sundin's case, you can't shoulder him with a large portion of the blame... clearly his teammates, and the organization for not providing Sundin with enough supporting talent, deserve the lion's share of the blame for the Leafs not winning a Cup in the Sundin era.

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- opiated - 11-28-2005

cferneyh Wrote:

opiated Wrote:but it's true..until you win a championship, and you're the leader of that team, all the OT winners in regular season play mean nothing in the long run...

Oh how I love blanket statements like that. So Bryan Trottier and his six Stanley Cup rings mean nothing because he was never the captain of the Isles or Penguins. And I guess the leadership of Dave Andreychuk made him much more valuable than Jarome Iginla during the 03/04 playoffs. Comical.

what's comical is the love affair you have with this guy :wink: ..it's the way it is..when a player wins a championship, he's upped to a different level...i know you've thrown those 'captain clutch" stats around, and yes..they're impressive...and perhaps it's not fair, but if he won a cup he'd be seen as a better leader because he's the captain..you must know that is how the media and most people perceive things

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- MikeS - 11-28-2005

I feel for Mats...I really do...

I mean, here's a guy who has exemplified CLASS within a franchise that is clearly despised from coast to coast, and yet people fail to give him his due...

The Ray Bourque comparison mentioned earlier struck a chord with me...basically what that example suggests is that if Sundin were traded at the deadline to a team that went on to win the Cup, his career would all of a sudden have some sort of magical "meaning"...

For anyone born after 1967 (ie. the "post-Keon Years"), and with apologies to Wendel Clark (who didn't have the added pressure of playing for a contender) there is only one player who has brought to Toronto what Sundin has brought in his tenure here, and that's Darryl Sittler...I hate to say it, but if Mats was born in Brampton as opposed to Bromma, many people would probably look at his career very differently...

Bottom line is, he's a guaranteed first ballot hall of famer...DEAL WITH IT!

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- tragicallymike - 11-28-2005

Sabres have taken 13 out of a possible 14 points in their last 7 games..that makes me happy.

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- cferneyh - 11-28-2005

MikeS Wrote:Bottom line is, he's a guaranteed first ballot hall of famer...DEAL WITH IT!

:thumb:

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- j-monster - 11-28-2005

tragicallymike Wrote:Sabres have taken 13 out of a possible 14 points in their last 7 games..that makes me happy.

I'm surprised Buffalo is doing as well as they are... although given the makeup of their team, I guess it shouldn't be as much of a surprise. They have a lot of good young talent with speed... I think with them it's just a matter of can they continue to get reliable goaltending, and can they be consistent over the whole season.

And as a Leaf fan, few things bother me more than seeing the Leafs go into Buffalo, usually with at least half the crowd on their side, and then laying an egg against the Sabres... maybe they just have bad karma there, who knows?

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- cferneyh - 11-28-2005

I have to admit that the Sabres have exceeded my expectations. Good on them. And it's nice to see the Bruins bringing up the rear in the Northeast, and the owner (Jeremy Jacobs) has started whining about the deals they gave to Thornton, Zhamnov, and Leetch. HA!

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- keithtalent - 11-28-2005

j-monster Wrote:I'm surprised Buffalo is doing as well as they are...

I'm surprised by this as well. I've been to 2 NHL games this year, both involving the Sabres, and watched them get outscored 15-4! The fact that played Ottawa both times might have something to do with it. :thumb:

Given the way the Sabres have always given us trouble I was hoping the games would be closer. Still, I expect a couple of the remaining Sabres-Sens games this year will be classics. They can definitely skate with us, they just need to play a goaltender next time

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- tigerthelion - 11-28-2005

MikeS Wrote:I feel for Mats...I really do...

I mean, here's a guy who has exemplified CLASS within a franchise that is clearly despised from coast to coast, and yet people fail to give him his due...

The Ray Bourque comparison mentioned earlier struck a chord with me...basically what that example suggests is that if Sundin were traded at the deadline to a team that went on to win the Cup, his career would all of a sudden have some sort of magical "meaning"...

For anyone born after 1967 (ie. the "post-Keon Years"), and with apologies to Wendel Clark (who didn't have the added pressure of playing for a contender) there is only one player who has brought to Toronto what Sundin has brought in his tenure here, and that's Darryl Sittler...I hate to say it, but if Mats was born in Brampton as opposed to Bromma, many people would probably look at his career very differently...

Bottom line is, he's a guaranteed first ballot hall of famer...DEAL WITH IT!

Who said he wasn't a HOF'er?? Nobody said that at all. That has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONVERSATION!!!

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