RIP Yasser Arafat - Printable Version

RIP Yasser Arafat - Printable Version

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- Stephen Dame - 11-11-2004

A capable symbol for the hopes and desires of his people.

A hinderence to the peace process and a supporter of terrorism.

Now that he's lived his life, progress from a more moderate head of the PA is all we can hope for.... M.A. is probably the guy.

- CanuckCourage - 11-11-2004

highlander Wrote:
grooveless touque Wrote:
highlander Wrote:Great leader? cratch:

I say good riddance. He's a big reason there has been no peace in the middle east for decades.
Oh yeah, I suppose the Israelis aren't to blame at all for hiding in the shelter of the United States, denying the Palestinians basic human rights and a land of their own...the Palestinians are just as oppressed as the Jews were prior to Israel being founded, but the Jews sure don't see the parallel.

Don't forget Ariel Sharon is to blame for the past four years' fighting and suicide bombing. It all started when he set foot on a Muslim holy site just because he could back in 2000.

I didn't say Sharon was innocent at all. I stated that Arafat was a big reason why there hasn't been peace in that region for a very long time. Terrorism is not the way to solve your people's problems. Condoning the terrorism and suicide attacks against innocent people does not make you a great ruler, it makes you a murderer.

That's true, Arafat is a big reason there hasn't been peace there, what's peace in abject poverty though. Palestine utilises terrorism, but what is the military occupation of Palestine ? It's glorified terrorism, the Israeli forces have been killing civillians for years, bulldozing their homes, in a straight out occupation by Israel, supported by the U.S.. One of the functions of Terrorism is to give those who are not heard a voice, plain and simple. That's not to excuse it, but these governments repress those whom are against their interests, whether it's ideological or economical. Sharon is just as bad as Arafat, Israel kills civillians with their military and Palestine uses civillians to kill Israeli military and civillians. There is no way for the Palestinians to fight for their land or their rights, they are overrun by a rich nation with a massive army, Palestine has virtually no army, they are poor. So if the problem is to be solved, it has to be understand why terrorism exists there. Palestine cannot fight the Israeli army, that's impossible, so they engage in terrorism, to change public sentiment, to try to effect change of some kind. The difference between State approved Terrorism and that of the Palestinian one is the propaganda machine at their disposal, Israel obviously has the advantage in propaganda proliferation, especially with US backing. Israel has occupied Palestine since 1967 when they took full control. Palestine has wanted independece and to be their own State. From 1993 - 2000, 30 new Israeli settlements were established in Palestine with 18,000 homes being built as the Israelis confiscated 35,000 acres of Palestinian land. The Palestinians became poorer and poorer and in 2000 unemployment stood at 40%.On March 26, 2001, the Security Council considered a resolution to establish an international presence in the Occupied Territories as a way to prevent human rights violations. The United States vetoed the resolution.

In March 2002, Amnesty International reported that more than 1,000 Palestinians had been killed. "Israeli security services have killed Palestinians, including more than 200 children, unlawfully, by shelling and bombing residential areas, random or targeted shooting, especially near checkpoints and borders, by extrajudicial executions and during demonstrations." The following is from a CBS article year a go, fall of 93 when a band of Israeli fighter pilots refused to shell civillian areas anymore..."We ... are opposed to carrying out illegal and immoral orders to attack, of the type Israel carries out in the territories," a letter from the pilots stated. "We ... refuse to continue to hit innocent civilians ... "
"The continued occupation is critically harming the country's security" and moral fiber, the statement added. ( <a class="postlink" href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/world/main575270.shtml">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/ ... 5270.shtml</a> )

There is always another side to every story, and so far Mainstream media in the US has carried the Israeli propaganda with no thought to the situation and it's causes/effects or possible solutions. Bush and his neo cons continue the Rhetoric with the "war on terrorism". Like terrorism was spawned from satan himself/herself. To continue to treat terrorist acts as if it is strictly an act against humanity is to deny it's cause and to do nothing but proliferate it throughout the future. Palestine needs their independence , and Israel needs to end their illegal occupation, that much is obvious.

Mark

VioletlightHeron Wrote:but I do wish the Palestinians and Arabs would wake up and smell the coffee

Maybe you should put yourself in their shoes before making such an idiotic comment.

- VioletlightHeron - 11-11-2004

Mark, the Arabs and Palestinians shot themselves in the foot way back in the 1920's and have continued to make tactical and strategic mistakes that are one of the reasons the Palestinians have not succeeded in securing their own homeland. They refused to negotiate with the Jews back when the Balfour Declaration was made British policy, which stated that the Brits were favourable towards a Jewish homeland as long as the civil rights of the existing Arab population were respected, the Jews were willing to start from there and negotiate an amicable settlement, but they were blown off by the Arab countries who didnt want any Jewish settlements there despite years of history showing they had a right to live there as much as the Palestinians did. Then, of course, we have all the armed murderous reprisals carried out by both Jewish and Muslim mobs against each other before the start of WW 2. I'm not saying Israel is perfect but they had shown more willingness to negotiate, starting with the league of nations mandate that divided Palestine into Palestinian and Jewish areas, with Jerusalem as an international city and the Oslo Peace Accords. People seem to conveniently forget the '48. '56. '67 and '73 wars that the Arab nations started against Israel and got their ass handed to them on a silver platter. Not to mention they were the ones who set up the refugee camps in Jordanian(now the West Bank) and Egyptian(now Gaza strip) territory and let the Palestinian people live in piss poor conditions, to stoke their anger and make them willing tools. You say I dont understand the Palestinian mindset, well I don't think you completely understand the Israeli point of view. You try living in a country where your next stop in a cafe could end up with you on a stretcher bleeding your guts out because a suicide bomber decided it was a glorious day to become a martyr and try to understand the distrust against Palestian proclaimations to negotiate and willingness of the Israeli people to support the harsh measures they use to prevent suicide attacks.

- AmbitionlessHipster - 11-11-2004

VioletlightHeron Wrote:You try living in a country where your next stop in a cafe could end up with you on a stretcher bleeding your guts out because a suicide bomber decided it was a glorious day to become a martyr and try to understand the distrust against Palestian proclaimations to negotiate and willingness of the Israeli people to support the harsh measures they use to prevent suicide attacks.

you try living in the Palestinian side where youre confined to curfews, you cannot leave the house to get bread for your family (primary sustinence, no?) and you cannot get adequate medical care for your ailing grandmother.
Lights out means a week, water is a blessing
Your shops are closed down (kill the industry, right... no survival there)

you try living where you must play amidst IDF soldiers and see your friends get ripped to shreds by their bullets before your eyes (future terrorist, my ass)... ever wonder what it is like to not be able to go to school one day because the israelis wont let you?

at least the majority of israelis have the opportunity for a normal life

how about the distrust for the israelis... its as equally justifiable

- VioletlightHeron - 11-11-2004

I think most of the Palestinian people should be more angry at their leadership for using them as cannon fodder, making empty promises about education and basic infrastructure. Arafat and the PLO turned the schools into propaganda mills to warp and mold their children into suicide bombers while scamming most of the foreign aid they recieved into Swiss bank accounts. can somebody please explain how it is necessary to the Palestinian cause for Suha Arafat to live in Paris on 100 grand a month and then try to inject herself into the palestinian political process as her husband lies dying? Whose fault is it the curfews exist in the first place? The first intifada saw alot of protesting, throwing rocks and molotov cocktails and the like, then they decided to strap Semtex belts to their waists and go searching for those alleged 72 virgins in paradise. Would you negotiate with the Quebecois if they decided to forgo political negotiations and start chucking bombs to improve their negotiating position? I dont think so.

- AmbitionlessHipster - 11-11-2004

VioletlightHeron Wrote:Would you negotiate with the Quebecois if they decided to forgo political negotiations and start chucking bombs to improve their negotiating position? I dont think so.

Do anglophones deny the Quebecois of basic rights to life?
NO.
So... I doubt they would find much reason to throw rocks.

And what negotiating position? how can there even be a debate about that? the position to want to live a normal life? That should have to be negotiated?!?! easy... :?

- grooveless touque - 11-11-2004

VioletlightHeron Wrote:Well, first of all, Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was a red herring. Perfect excuse for the Palestinians to throw a hissy fit and launch the second intifada. It's like me daring some drunken frat boy to visit my kegger and then getting pissed when he does. The Israelis have made many mistakes but to condemn them when they are getting hit with suicide bombers encouraged by Arafat's propaganda is foolhardy. I don't agree with the right wing orthodox, they are going to have to learn to live in peace with each other and share their common land, but I do wish the Palestinians and Arabs would wake up and smell the coffee, they were foolish to start the whole thing with the '48 war and haven't had much success ever since.

I think it to be more than a red herring...it was a PERFECT example of the arrogance and superiority complex the Israelis have. By the way I'm not defending the actions of the Palestinian radicals, because like radicals everywhere, they do not speak for the majority. A lot of Palestinians (including both of the ones I know) think it only invites further retaliation and tension.

The two people have been fighting for millennia; now one's been given a homeland under the American umbrella and lords it over the other. Is someone going to wonder why there's Arab terrorists going apeshit?

(Thanks for being mature enough not to call me anti-Semitic. Someone usually does.)

- VioletlightHeron - 11-11-2004

Your absolutely right that these two groups have been bashing each over the head and using allies to throw the other off the land(Romans expelling the Jews, Ottoman Turks expelling the Jews, the Notable Families expelling their fellow arabs, The British standing by while the Notables booted off the arabs). By notable families I mean the old money arab families who prospered under the Ottoman Empire and pretty much were looking out for numero uno when the Ottoman Empire finally went kaput after WW One. However, the original kibbiztum that form the basis for Jewish land claims of Palestine were fairly bought by Jews from the notable families, who then proceeded to turn around and work with outside Arab countries to try booting off the Jews the land they had sold to them. I don't doubt Arafat's shrewdness in using guerrilla tactics to fight a war, it makes perfect tactical sense in theory, but it is totally distasteful. There have been atrocities committed by both Jewish and Palestinian civilian and military groups, but I dont think Arafat deserves the label 'statesman' or 'diplomat'. Abbas seems to me like a reasonable guy who will invest the foreign aid given by Europe and the rest of the world community into building up the democratic institutions and infrastructure a real nation needs, not sock it away in Swiss banks like Arafat did. I say about Arafat...good riddance to bad rubbish.

- grooveless touque - 11-11-2004

VioletlightHeron Wrote:good riddance to bad rubbish.

Too bad that in the past month, the world is only batting 1 for 2 on that count... :lol:

- CanuckCourage - 11-13-2004

VioletlightHeron Wrote:Mark, the Arabs and Palestinians shot themselves in the foot way back in the 1920's and have continued to make tactical and strategic mistakes that are one of the reasons the Palestinians have not succeeded in securing their own homeland. They refused to negotiate with the Jews back when the Balfour Declaration was made British policy, which stated that the Brits were favourable towards a Jewish homeland as long as the civil rights of the existing Arab population were respected, the Jews were willing to start from there and negotiate an amicable settlement, but they were blown off by the Arab countries who didnt want any Jewish settlements there despite years of history showing they had a right to live there as much as the Palestinians did. Then, of course, we have all the armed murderous reprisals carried out by both Jewish and Muslim mobs against each other before the start of WW 2. I'm not saying Israel is perfect but they had shown more willingness to negotiate, starting with the league of nations mandate that divided Palestine into Palestinian and Jewish areas, with Jerusalem as an international city and the Oslo Peace Accords. People seem to conveniently forget the '48. '56. '67 and '73 wars that the Arab nations started against Israel and got their ass handed to them on a silver platter. Not to mention they were the ones who set up the refugee camps in Jordanian(now the West Bank) and Egyptian(now Gaza strip) territory and let the Palestinian people live in piss poor conditions, to stoke their anger and make them willing tools. You say I dont understand the Palestinian mindset, well I don't think you completely understand the Israeli point of view. You try living in a country where your next stop in a cafe could end up with you on a stretcher bleeding your guts out because a suicide bomber decided it was a glorious day to become a martyr and try to understand the distrust against Palestian proclaimations to negotiate and willingness of the Israeli people to support the harsh measures they use to prevent suicide attacks.

I think you could argue both sides have made gestures towards peace and also towards the opposite end. Israelis do have to deal with suicide bombings in cafe's, the Palestinians have to deal with the military bulldozing their homes, being shot by soldiers/tanks/helicopters etc...Not to mention poverty and obvious hopelessness. How can you justify Israel's position? Do you see Palestinians settling in their territory ? The Palestinians are being cramped and pushed into a corner with poverty and oppression, somehow Israel's killing of civillians is justified and accepted while the Palestinians is not ? (obviously neither should be) As far as mistakes made in the past by the Palestinian leadership goes, that's no justification for the human rights violations Israel is committing at this time, Israel is a rich developed nation, Palestine is not, an eye for an eye doesn't cut it. Plain and simply Israel has to leave the occupied territory in which they have been infringing on. Palestine has been ostracized for their terrorist actions, and rightfully so, why hasn't Israel ? Because they use the military to carry out the same action ? There is no doubt the Palestinian authority has stifled dissent and freedom of speech and at the same time Israel has broken dozens of UN resolutions in Palestine over the last 30 years. The Palestininians are being demonized while Israel is sanitized by the media. The portrayal of what is going on is so skewed, Arafat was no angel, but at the same time all of Palestine, and all Arabs are being painted with the same stroke.

Here are the first few paragraphs of a report done by Amnesty International , dated April 6th 2004.. ( <a class="postlink" href="http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGIOR410122004">http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGIOR410122004</a> )

Delivered by Peter Splinter

Mr Chair,

In the past three and a half years, since the beginning of the ongoing intifada (uprising) violence and human rights violations have reached a level unprecedented in the 37 years of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The Israeli army has killed more than 2,300 Palestinians , most of them unarmed and including more than 400 children and Palestinian armed groups have killed some 900 Israelis, most of them civilians and including 100 children.

The Israeli army has also destroyed more than 3,000 Palestinian homes, and hundreds of workshops, factories and public buildings, as well as large areas of cultivated land in the Occupied Territories. In the Gaza Strip alone, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, more than 10 percent of the agricultural land has been destroyed. In his 2003 annual report UNRWA’s Commissioner-General, commenting on the rhythm of destruction of refugee homes in the Gaza Strip, noted that UNRWA "was not able to keep up with the pace of shelter destruction". The extent of the destruction has left tens of thousands of Palestinians homeless and/or destitute.

Increasingly stringent restrictions imposed by the Israeli army on the movement of Palestinians within the Occupied Territories have curtailed their access to work, education and medical care. As a result, poverty and unemployment have spiralled. Two thirds of Palestinians now live below the poverty line and malnutrition and other health problems are spreading.

The humanitarian crisis has been exacerbated by the construction of a fence/wall large parts of which lie within the West Bank, as documented by the Commission’s Special Rapporteur. Israel claims that the fence/wall is intended to prevent entry into Israel to Palestinian suicide bombers and other attackers. However, most of the fence/wall is being constructed inside the West Bank -- not on the Green Line between Israel and the West Bank.

Is this is the action of a developed, civilized nation ? I'd like to say no, but in this day and age it unfortunately is.

Mark

- VioletlightHeron - 11-13-2004

The Israeli military has been "infringing" on Palestinian territory in the West Bank and Gaza Strip because almost every time Israel makes a peace agreement with the Palestinian Authority and pulls back the military, the other Islamic radical groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad rush in and start attacking Israeli convoys or settlements while Arafat and the Palestinian Authority make token efforts to stop the attacks. Back when the Oslo Peace Accords were signed, the PA was supposed to crack down on the fundementalists out of recognition that Israeli crackdowns would be politically harmful but they either stood aside and did nothing to prevent the car bombing campaigns of 1994-1996 or only made the weakest of efforts. Israel has made mistakes and they do understand that it doesnt make them popular with the Palestinians when they bulldoze homes or conduct air strikes against terrorist safe houses, but I dont think they have a choice, given the lack of will to stop the attacks by the PA.

- j-monster - 11-13-2004

Bush and Blair vow to bring peace to Palestine... let's hope it's not empty talk.

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/morefrom/story/headlines/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/20041113/ts_chicagotrib/bushvowspushforpeace&e=5

- AmbitionlessHipster - 11-14-2004

Its worse than empty talk...

"Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites), meeting with reporters between a two-day series of conferences, contended that free elections and the establishment of a democratic Palestinian state will be the precursor to any lasting Middle East peace. "

They will really push a peace process now, because with Arafat gone, they can instill the WONDERS of democracy (aka to America as "helping" a puppet government get into power.....)

master manipulation

:roll:

- Beat - 11-14-2004

j-monster Wrote:Bush and Blair vow to bring peace to Palestine... let's hope it's not empty talk.

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/morefrom/story/headlines/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/20041113/ts_chicagotrib/bushvowspushforpeace&e=5

The US and GB have been saying that for decades. The only one who came close was Clinton. That was because he had the help of Rabin. When Rabin was killed by someone of his own country because he wanted peace, all hope for peace was killed with him. Arafat, Netanyahu, Sharon....they're all about the same in my opinion.

- CanuckCourage - 11-14-2004

Chris, I'm glad you chose to highlight "infringing", I was too kind in my description of what Israel and it's military has done. From 1976 until mid 1985 Israel had established 118 settlements in Palestininian territory. The settlements contravene the 4th Geneva Convention Article 49 which states that the "Occupying Power shall not transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." Thousands of acres were then occupied by Israeli settlers. Since 1948 they have displaced and created well over 4,000,000 Palestinian refugees living in Jordan,Lebanon,Syria, The West Bank and Gaza. ( <a class="postlink" href="http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/mepp/new_prrn/background/index.htm">http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/mepp/new_prrn ... /index.htm</a> )These refugees are not allowed to return to their homeland. Israel will not allow it, even through it is a clear violation of several UN Resolutions. As far as the terrorist groups, it's not hard to find recruits when you have been stepped on for 50+years. When poverty proliferates and the only thing that endures is hatred and hopelessness, combine a lack of education and Palestinian propaganda, and you have a terrorist with a cause. Israel isn't interested in peace."Israel has made mistakes and they do understand that it doesnt make them popular with the Palestinians when they bulldoze homes " How would you feel if you came home one day to see the military running a bulldozer over your house? This is a territory that is utterly poor, they have nothing but their homes, they have no peace. Israel doesn't have a choice ? Yes they do, quit taking Palestinian land, try that if you want discourage hatred and suicide attacks. Quit demolishing civillian houses and setting up Israeli settlements, explain to me how this is neccessary? This is going to curb suicide bombers? This will bring peace ? Get off their land, give back what is stolen, let them have their state. I'm not trying to minimize what these Palestinian terrorist groups have done, just trying to give the other side that is not represented in todays pro Israeli press. Maybe if the US hadn't stuck their finger in the pie, this may be closer to resolution. From 1972 -2004 the US has vetoed no less than 40 UN Resolutions that were critical of Israels occupation of Palestine, in each of these cases the US was the only country to use their veto. ( <a class="postlink" href="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html">http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... etoes.html</a> )
From 1969 to 2002 Israel has violated more than 25 UN Resolutions regarding Palestine.

Mark