Reasons for the commercial decline - Printable Version
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Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - carebread - 08-24-2016
clarke Wrote:sean.bonner Wrote:2000 = Napster.
I agree with all the points above but mostly this, the entire industry changed. And I think it was just bad timing for the Hip that a big deviation in sound coincided with this period.
I was given DFN when it came out, I was 11. It was my first CD and I listened to it endlessly but didn't really know who the Hip were. Would have recognized Little Bones from that CBC Music Works show. Fast forward to 1998 and the Camp Trillium shows. I was 15 and lined up at 5am to get tickets for one of the London shows. My life changed the night seeing them live. I can remember Grace and 100th blowing my socks off and I was hooked. Quickly got LBU and PP, played them nonstop. And then FC, RA, and UTH. I remember the anticipation for M@W and the first time hearing Tiger the Lion. Saw them on the Evening With tour. By the time IVL came out I was totally obsessed, my last year of high school. I remember skipping 1st period to run out to my car to listen to the first single of the album on the radio for the first time. It wasn't what I was expecting but loved it none the less and the rest of the album. By the time IBE came out I was on the Hipbase and probably not looking to the radio for guidance on music anymore.
UTH, RA, and FC are probably my least favourite Hip albums (I never listen to the EP and basically don't think of it as part of their discography). IVL and IBE are two of my favourites (DFN and PP will always be the top).
All of this is to say for people my age (mid 30's) and definitely younger it would probably have been hard to get into the Hip. If you missed the explosion of FC I could see how it would be hard to get in just through hearing them on radio, especially if you weren't listening to the rock type stations. I was lucky to see them live at 15 and was hooked.
I'm 31 and Poets is what initially hooked me, so I'd consider pushing that a few years ahead. Of course I'm fairly close to Kingston so we had frequent airplay of the boys, so my exposure may be different than others.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - clarke - 08-24-2016
carebread Wrote:I'm 31 and Poets is what initially hooked me, so I'd consider pushing that a few years ahead. Of course I'm fairly close to Kingston so we had frequently airplay of the boys, so my exposure may be different than others.
Totally, meant mostly post PP.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - chancellor - 08-24-2016
clarke Wrote:sean.bonner Wrote:2000 = Napster.
I agree with all the points above but mostly this, the entire industry changed. And I think it was just bad timing for the Hip that a big deviation in sound coincided with this period.
I was given DFN when it came out, I was 11. It was my first CD and I listened to it endlessly but didn't really know who the Hip were. Would have recognized Little Bones from that CBC Music Works show. Fast forward to 1998 and the Camp Trillium shows. I was 15 and lined up at 5am to get tickets for one of the London shows. My life changed the night seeing them live. I can remember Grace and 100th blowing my socks off and I was hooked. Quickly got LBU and PP, played them nonstop. And then FC, RA, and UTH. I remember the anticipation for M@W and the first time hearing Tiger the Lion. Saw them on the Evening With tour. By the time IVL came out I was totally obsessed, my last year of high school. I remember skipping 1st period to run out to my car to listen to the first single of the album on the radio for the first time. It wasn't what I was expecting but loved it none the less and the rest of the album. By the time IBE came out I was on the Hipbase and probably not looking to the radio for guidance on music anymore.
UTH, RA, and FC are probably my least favourite Hip albums (I never listen to the EP and basically don't think of it as part of their discography). IVL and IBE are two of my favourites (DFN and PP will always be the top).
All of this is to say for people my age (mid 30's) and definitely younger it would probably have been hard to get into the Hip. If you missed the explosion of FC I could see how it would be hard to get in just through hearing them on radio, especially if you weren't listening to the rock type stations. I was lucky to see them live at 15 and was hooked.
Your story was quite similar to mine. My dad was a huge Hip fan when I was younger so they were heard them in the car. DFN would have been the first album I got on my own at age 12 and since then always bought the album on release day, skip classes those days everytime.
Camp Trillium show in Hamilton would have been my first concert but my cousin birthday was that day so I wan't allowed to go. Evening with show in Hamilton was my first.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - Lerxst1991 - 08-24-2016
FourPistols Wrote:I became a fan around 1998, and obviously I was late to the party. Looking back, I wish I had gotten into the band when I first heard about them in 1994, but better late than never. And they've been a huge part of my life over the past 18 years. All in good time, I suppose.
This latest tour, and the show on Saturday, is evidence that this has always been a pretty popular band. But I wonder how and why the commercial decline began. To me, it seemed like Phantom Power was the last album that had a bunch of hit singles that really took off. Music@Work has some nice moments, but beyond the quasi-title track, the other big songs didn't become radio staples in the way that Ahead by a Century, Poets, New Orleans did.
In Violet Light followed and I think it has some amazing tracks - The Dark Canuck, A Beautiful Thing, The Dire Wolf, Leave, etc. But I remember It's a Good Life getting some airplay here in the Buffalo region, but that's about it.
And then with subsequent albums, the first single would hit for a while, but the follow-up ones wouldn't stick with the public consciousness. Not that this really matters, because IBE and WATS both have a ton of great moments. But I wonder about why certain stuff sticks with the public while others don't.
Perhaps it was impossible for the band to maintain their ridiculous Up To Here - Phantom Power run. And that may be the case, because, geez, what a run that was. To me, Music@Work was the first side-step, but that seemed to be enough to drive away some of the casual fans. Because each of the 2000+ albums have some kick-ass songs. But by that point, it seemed like the casual fan was long gone (their loss, really).
Radio changed a lot during this time. You had a lot of angry rap-rock music that was popular there in the early 2000s. I think part of it may have been that the Hip just didn't fit the (lousy) format that well, at least here in the US.
Curious as to what other fans think about this. To me, they've been giving me brilliance pretty much all along the way. World Container, The Lookahead, You're Everywhere, The Depression Suite - incredible stuff. I just wish the mainstream would have realized/remembered that well before the awful news of May 2016.
How many established veteran rock bands have tunes released after 2000 that become and remain rock radio staples?
Is this because the bands are less popular due to declining album sales or due to a combination of technology and the younger generations near refusal to pay for recorded music?
Yet year after year they pay $300 for Pearl Jam tickets, well that's cheap here.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - Chris Tanz - 08-24-2016
direwolf74 Wrote:Tthip Wrote:sean.bonner Wrote:2000 = Napster.And it leaked 3 months early so most oeople had it already.
Haha, I forgot about that. I had the album probably two months before it actually hit the stores. A buddy of mine had burned a copy for me.
Wow, that brought back a memory! A friend of mine gave me a tape of the leaked version. I refused to listen to it ... Except My Music at Work, because it was already out there. And except Lake Fever, because they had played it at the New Years Eve/Day shows. And except the Bastard for the same reason. And except for the first little bit of Tiger the Lion, because one time I had heard it by accident and was too intrigued not to listen again ... I would fast forward all over the tape, only listening to bits of it, waiting for the official release. Ahhhh good times.
Ct
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - andrew sharpe - 08-25-2016
clarke Wrote:This was the biggest factor, for sure. Comparing DFN sales to NFPA sales is like comparing car sales from today with car sales in the 60's. Nobody buys music anymore.sean.bonner Wrote:2000 = Napster.I agree with all the points above but mostly this, the entire industry changed. And I think it was just bad timing for the Hip that a big deviation in sound coincided with this period.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - edgoffin - 08-25-2016
I am luckily (?) a bit older, so the EP came out when I was around 14 plus growing up in Ottawa they buitd a presence in the city with very well reviewed shows in the early days. I think M@W was the commercial breaking point. Phantom Power was a pretty big record, as far as I recall for radio play and commercial success (won a few Junos).
M@W, I remember the title song was released very early and it built up a lot of excitement around the album. Then the album itself is a bit of a left turn from the previous releases. I know it took me a long time to warm up to, and I still find the last half a bit choppy.
Credit to the band that they pushed in a new direction. I think they sort of parallel REM, another band I grew up with. They had a huge run of albums that ran up to Automatic for the People. I'm sure they could have release another similar album, like the Hip could have done another Phantom Power. Instead they released Monster, and in the case of the Hip they followed Gord's more experimental leaning.
Neither great for commercial success. Monster sold a ton of copies, but the band lost a fan base gained through Out of Time and Automatic. Both are CDs that are easily found in the used bins. But I suspect both good in terms of providing a bit of a "reset" for the band. Parallels generally end there. Drummer left and REM floundered around before finishing with two really strong albums. The Hip every reached the same low point in recorded output (Around the Sun is a pretty terrible record).
Add in there, radio formatting changed. I had not heard a Hip song on the radio in years, not that I listen to a lot of radio. Possessed got some radio play, but from May onward I heard a lot more "classic Hip" on those stations.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - Killer Whale Tank - 08-25-2016
Just to chime in again - how many of us really rate M@W and IVL as highlights of the Hip's career artistically? For all of the more sociological and industry-based explanations that we're canvassing in this thread, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that putting out two comparatively duff albums right at the point where they were entering the commercial equivalent of middle age probably was a self-inflicted kneecapping. What I remember about M@W is that everyone wanted to love it, but ultimately found themselves going, 'meh.' IVL still showed them able to score a memorable single ('It's a Good Life') but I recall a record store owner playing it when I walked in, and when I chatted with him, you could see he really didn't like the album, even though he wished he could. So my guess is that the Hip probably could have sustained their glory days for a few years longer if they'd not had that two-album dip in quality. Otherwise put, artistic merit may also play a role, strange as that sounds.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - rivum - 08-25-2016
clarke Wrote:sean.bonner Wrote:2000 = Napster.
I agree with all the points above but mostly this, the entire industry changed. And I think it was just bad timing for the Hip that a big deviation in sound coincided with this period.
I was given DFN when it came out, I was 11. It was my first CD and I listened to it endlessly but didn't really know who the Hip were. Would have recognized Little Bones from that CBC Music Works show. Fast forward to 1998 and the Camp Trillium shows. I was 15 and lined up at 5am to get tickets for one of the London shows. My life changed the night seeing them live. I can remember Grace and 100th blowing my socks off and I was hooked. Quickly got LBU and PP, played them nonstop. And then FC, RA, and UTH. I remember the anticipation for M@W and the first time hearing Tiger the Lion. Saw them on the Evening With tour. By the time IVL came out I was totally obsessed, my last year of high school. I remember skipping 1st period to run out to my car to listen to the first single of the album on the radio for the first time. It wasn't what I was expecting but loved it none the less and the rest of the album. By the time IBE came out I was on the Hipbase and probably not looking to the radio for guidance on music anymore.
UTH, RA, and FC are probably my least favourite Hip albums (I never listen to the EP and basically don't think of it as part of their discography). IVL and IBE are two of my favourites (DFN and PP will always be the top).
All of this is to say for people my age (mid 30's) and definitely younger it would probably have been hard to get into the Hip. If you missed the explosion of FC I could see how it would be hard to get in just through hearing them on radio, especially if you weren't listening to the rock type stations. I was lucky to see them live at 15 and was hooked.
very interesting story. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone saying that UTH, RA and FC are on the bottom of the favorite albums list...but I can see where that comes from for you.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - andrew sharpe - 08-25-2016
edgoffin Wrote:Instead they released Monster, and in the case of the Hip they followed Gord's more experimental leaning.I bet it was as much the band leading the change of pace on M@W as it was Gord. I remember reading stories about Johnny bringing in weird instruments he'd bought on the streets of NYC.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - Killer Whale Tank - 08-25-2016
I remember Gord D. somewhere saying that, for M@W, he didn't come in with finished lyrics, but rather random, disconnected couplets and lines that he then tried to develop into proper songs in dialogue with the band's music. I also got the distinct impression that he regarded that approach as a near-disaster; his interviews in the wake of that album really emphasized 'preparation,' coming into the studio with fully-developed ideas. He was scared sh*tless by the experience. He also remarked that everyone in the band came to the M@W sessions 'armed' with their ideas and ready to defend them. Based on these remarks, I've always suspected that the sessions for that album were very fraught, pushing the band to the brink. And I think the (comparative) drop in the focus ans sharpness of Gord's lyrics on that album, as well as his relative inability to come up with memorable hooks, can also be explained that way.
All that said, the album's real problem is bloat. Remove 'Tiger,' 'The Bastard,' and 'Wild Mountain Honey,' and you've got a rather nice, somewhat poppy album, albeit one with quite abstract lyrics, and a heavy acoustic tinge. Those removals make the album sound much closer to the band that made PP and, IMHO, yield a much more satisfying overall listen. That it's the first Hip album that I had to 'negotiate' with in this way (as in, 'OK, if I drop tracks X and Y, it's actually quite listenable) is one indicator of the drop in quality, to my ear.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - clarke - 08-25-2016
This isn't to say that I don't love those albums, which I do. And I love hearing those songs live. But rarely choose to listen to those albums over the rest. Would much rather hear Luv(sic), Last Night I Dreamed You Didn't Love Me, Makeshift, Dire Wolf over Little Bones, Courage, NOIS, or Blow.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - direwolf74 - 08-25-2016
Killer Whale Tank Wrote:All that said, the album's real problem is bloat. Remove 'Tiger,' 'The Bastard,' and 'Wild Mountain Honey,' and you've got a rather nice, somewhat poppy album, albeit one with quite abstract lyrics, and a heavy acoustic tinge. Those removals make the album sound much closer to the band that made PP and, IMHO, yield a much more satisfying overall listen. That it's the first Hip album that I had to 'negotiate' with in this way (as in, 'OK, if I drop tracks X and Y, it's actually quite listenable) is one indicator of the drop in quality, to my ear.
That's crazy talk. Tiger is one of my all-time favorite Hip songs. Ever seen that song live? It's a beast. I agree on dropping The Bastard and Wild Mountain Honey though. I also would have left Freak Turbulence on the cutting room floor. I remember an interview with Paul around that time where he mentioned that they had recorded around 30 songs for that album, and had entertained the idea of possibly making it a double album. That could also partly explain why things may have been tense in the studio with everybody defending their ideas, as Gord mentioned. I would imagine that trying to whittle that down to 14 tracks would have caused some disagreements.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - Killer Whale Tank - 08-25-2016
:lol: The main thing is that M@W has too many long, uninspired tracks on it - mostly the 'rock' tracks, as opposed to the more mid-tempo acoustic-tinged stuff that seems to be what the album was really trying to be. I can see switching up 'Tiger' for 'Freak Turbulence,' actually. In my personal re-sequencing, I go with 'Freak' because it has some kick, but I wouldn't object to the alternative. Either way, the record needed to be shorter and more focused. If you're going to have songs with quite abstract lyrics and a dearth of killer hooks, it can't *also* be too long and bloated. Fortunately, IVL - for all its failings - at least saw a return to sharper focus from the band IMHO. But what I see as the 'core' of M@W - mid-tempo acoustic-tinged pop - is more agreeable than the flubbed 'back to basics' of IVL.
It's interesting to imagine what might have happened had they gone with the 'double album' concept for M@W. On that scenario, rather than doing what I advocate above - tighten things up - they'd have gone in the opposite direction, expand it outwards explicitly and self-indulgently. This might actually have been a better idea from a commercial viewpoint: it would have signaled very clearly up front that the 'bloat' was part of the point and that you, as a buyer/listener, had better be ready to sift through the material and extract what you feel are the gems. One could argue that the album tries to split the difference between expansiveness and tightness, and falls through the cracks.
Re: Reasons for the commercial decline - senrab - 08-25-2016
direwolf74 Wrote:True enough. U2 will always be cool to me though. I adore that band. One of the things I really dig about those guys is how they continually revolutionize the live concert experience every time they tour. From Zoo TV, to Popmart, to the giant claw, and last year's tour with that massive transparent arena-length video screen with the surround sound speaker set up (speakers along the venue's ceiling, etc..). Their tours are always state of the art spectacles, and I've been blown away by every one I've seen. Hell, I even like their two most recent albums, which everybody seems to hate. But that's me.
I hated much of NLOTH except for Moment of Surrender (recorded in one take!), Unknown Caller, Fez, and Breathe. Larry Mullen Jr. said later on that they completely regretted choosing Get On Your Boots as the first single, he was 100% right. There was a funkier and faster version of the title track called "No Line On the Horizon [version 2]" that was released as a b-side...I think that should have been the version that went on the album.
Songs of Innocence was much better, it will always be associated with the iTunes debacle but I think they have a pretty good sense of humor about the backlash. The only song I really can't stand off that album is Sleep Like a Baby Tonight. My favorites from that one are Iris and Cedarwood Road.
back to the Hip - I'm not from Canada, and was very young in their 90s heyday, so I never experienced the commercial success firsthand. I only saw and heard bits and pieces from Canadian radio and CBC. I do remember seeing a commercial for the upcoming M@W album on channel 29 in Buffalo, though.