PunBB

Bosman Wrote:It's no surprise that someone out there doesn't enjoy the new album. And I'll be the second to agree that the band, on this album (much like their last couple), has lost its "cottage-friendly lineup of tunes." I don't particularly find this to be as catastrophic as he does. That being said, I am a sucker for the acoustic campfire staples of the Hip collection.

I enjoy World Container. I'm more into this album than I was IVL and IBE. But, I was shocked (yet not really) to find very little criticism around here. This review was harsh and Ben's likely anti-Hip. But everyone here is pro-Hip and as such, it's hard to find an unbiased review.

After nearly 20 years of making music, a band is going to evolve. Some fans ride the wave, others jump on and off as they please and some people never catch the wave at all. He just may be one that doesn't like which way the band is going - that's fine. He'll keep listening to Wheat Kings on repeat.

I know what you mean, and I actually agree... but I was more shocked at the poor quality of his review, as has already been said, he has cited no examples to back up his opinion!

Bosman Wrote:It's no surprise that someone out there doesn't enjoy the new album. And I'll be the second to agree that the band, on this album (much like their last couple), has lost its "cottage-friendly lineup of tunes." I don't particularly find this to be as catastrophic as he does. That being said, I am a sucker for the acoustic campfire staples of the Hip collection.

I enjoy World Container. I'm more into this album than I was IVL and IBE. But, I was shocked (yet not really) to find very little criticism around here. This review was harsh and Ben's likely anti-Hip. But everyone here is pro-Hip and as such, it's hard to find an unbiased review.

After nearly 20 years of making music, a band is going to evolve. Some fans ride the wave, others jump on and off as they please and some people never catch the wave at all. He just may be one that doesn't like which way the band is going - that's fine. He'll keep listening to Wheat Kings on repeat.

Well, let me be the first (apparently) to offer a dissenting opinion.

I don't like this record at all. Why not?

Fact is, I completely disagree with the treatment accorded to most of these songs. I find the songs themselves - i.e., lyrics, melody, basic structure - to be heartfelt and, often, terrific. But I find the actual PERFORMANCES of the songs as recorded, to be relentlessly bombastic, histrionic, overblown. They're absolutely smothered all of that massive production, those thirty-or-however-many-it-is tracks on each song, the massive and inhuman wall of sound. Over and over, I find myself wishing that this were a Gord Downie solo CD - allowing these lovely songs to breathe, and to be performed in the genuine, relaxed, open, and low-key way that would have suited them best.

The most egregious offender is 'Last Night I Dreamed You Didn't Love Me.' This has the makings of a true classic. It could be sung by Frank Sinatra, for God's sake; a testament to Downie's evolution as a songwriter. Too bad it's smothered in enough sonic ketchup and 'Rawk band' guitars to make the last U2 album sound like an exercise in restraint. Another example is 'Pretend,' which sounds nice - although frustratingly oversung - until the chorus, when the same old tiresome *big production* sound kicks in. Way to ruin a pretty song by puffing it up.

Even 'Rink' would have more emotional impact if sung in that intimate campfire way.

The only song that, to me, is absolutely nailed on this record is 'The Kids Don't Get It.' That's a song that BENEFITS from a hysterical, speaker-pounding production - a great kind of old man's punk, terrific stuff all around. It's the only really perfect decision on the record.

Bob Rock is only partly to blame. It's no big surprise to find that the mastermind behind entire remainder's bins worth of banal arena rock has produced a Hip album with all the restraint and taste of a bulldozer. But the Hip themselves seem to have defined themselves as a 'Big Sound' rock band and appear to be trapped in that box - to the point that, when handed a bunch of outstanding songs that cry out for restrained intimacy, they plough them under with histrionics.

Too bad. I don't have any resentment or anger about it - the Hip have given me years of pleasure and owe me absolutely nothing. But I seriously doubt that I will ever listen to this record more than a handful of times. I think the best thing for Downie might be to ditch his bandmates at this point. Based on this record, at least, they're not doing him any favours.

hock:

Really???

I think that Gord's poetry has grown because of the band. The more the years go by, the more the lyrics are insightful, meaningful, and at times witty. His poetry is part of what makes the Hip what they are.

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:I find the songs themselves - i.e., lyrics, melody, basic structure - to be heartfelt and, often, terrific. But I find the actual PERFORMANCES of the songs as recorded, to be relentlessly bombastic, histrionic, overblown. They're absolutely smothered all of that massive production ... The most egregious offender is 'Last Night I Dreamed You Didn't Love Me.'

Actually, I agree with you, but the worst offender by far is "World Container," which has been more or less destroyed by overproduction. Starts well, becomes almost unlistenable before the end.

I don't know that I agree that the Hip have defined themselves as a "big sound" band and are trapped in that box. It seems to me that these days they just can't find a sound that works for them. I don't think Bob Rock has found it.

As far as this review goes, to my mind a reviewer has two jobs: give you an idea of what to expect, and provide a frame of reference for his criticism, for the sake of the reader. This reviewer actually gives you a frame of reference. It's pretty clear why he dislikes the album. So fair enough.

His greatest crime is that he can't write for shit:
"As with most of their work since 1996’s Trouble at the Henhouse, Canada’s most Canadian Canadians have put together a technically competent, somewhat literate collection of songs that ultimately fail to illicit much of an emotional response in the listener."

The word is elicit, not illicit.

Amateurs.

KWT ... sorry you feel that way -- I think this calls for a dose of Yer Not the Ocean/Fly/Family Band therapy. Even if you write off the rest of the album for the reasons you've identified, these are keepers.

Downie-solo gives us such things as Figment, Pascal's Submarine, and 11th Fret -- great songs all, but not suffering from low-key production or restrained intimacy by any stretch of the imagination. These, of course, would be balanced by Willow Logic, More Me Less You, Steeplechase, etc.

In 2005, the Hip released Yer Favourites with two new songs -- a gum-in-your-hair jumper-cables-on-your-nipples rocker and a quiet little slice of heaven.

I don't think the days of intimate campfire are over, I just think that's not this record.

Of course, there are people who think Automatic for the People was REM's last good album, so I guess it's a big world full of opinions.

I like the expression "sonic ketchup" though, and seek permission to use it in everyday conversation.

that's it,
ct

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:Well, let me be the first (apparently) to offer a dissenting opinion.

I don't like this record at all. Why not?

Fact is, I completely disagree with the treatment accorded to most of these songs. I find the songs themselves - i.e., lyrics, melody, basic structure - to be heartfelt and, often, terrific. But I find the actual PERFORMANCES of the songs as recorded, to be relentlessly bombastic, histrionic, overblown. They're absolutely smothered all of that massive production, those thirty-or-however-many-it-is tracks on each song, the massive and inhuman wall of sound. Over and over, I find myself wishing that this were a Gord Downie solo CD - allowing these lovely songs to breathe, and to be performed in the genuine, relaxed, open, and low-key way that would have suited them best.

The most egregious offender is 'Last Night I Dreamed You Didn't Love Me.' This has the makings of a true classic. It could be sung by Frank Sinatra, for God's sake; a testament to Downie's evolution as a songwriter. Too bad it's smothered in enough sonic ketchup and 'Rawk band' guitars to make the last U2 album sound like an exercise in restraint. Another example is 'Pretend,' which sounds nice - although frustratingly oversung - until the chorus, when the same old tiresome *big production* sound kicks in. Way to ruin a pretty song by puffing it up.

Even 'Rink' would have more emotional impact if sung in that intimate campfire way.

The only song that, to me, is absolutely nailed on this record is 'The Kids Don't Get It.' That's a song that BENEFITS from a hysterical, speaker-pounding production - a great kind of old man's punk, terrific stuff all around. It's the only really perfect decision on the record.

Bob Rock is only partly to blame. It's no big surprise to find that the mastermind behind entire remainder's bins worth of banal arena rock has produced a Hip album with all the restraint and taste of a bulldozer. But the Hip themselves seem to have defined themselves as a 'Big Sound' rock band and appear to be trapped in that box - to the point that, when handed a bunch of outstanding songs that cry out for restrained intimacy, they plough them under with histrionics.

Too bad. I don't have any resentment or anger about it - the Hip have given me years of pleasure and owe me absolutely nothing. But I seriously doubt that I will ever listen to this record more than a handful of times. I think the best thing for Downie might be to ditch his bandmates at this point. Based on this record, at least, they're not doing him any favours.

I disagree. Before the album came out I thought I would end up hating Bob Rock's production, but I was pleasanty surprised when I heard the results. I suppose I could do without some of the extra bells & whistles on the song "World Container", but the song is so freakin' fantastic that it really doesn't bother me that much. On the heavier songs, it actually sounds like Bob held back a bit and just let the Hip rock out. Yes, you can definitely hear some layered guitar tracks, and maybe a background keyboard or synth here and there, but that's where he keeps them-- in the background. The songs are the most important thing, and I think Rock did a nice job of letting the songs shine through. Also, he's the first producer since Don Smith to capture Johnny's drums the way they're supposed to sound, and unlike other Hip records, Downie's vocals are nice and high in the mix and right up front where they should be. Most bands use fancy production to cover up their lousy songs, but the songs on World Container might be the best batch of tunes the Hip have written in quite a while, and I think for the most part the production suits the material beautifully. So what if it has a big sound? It's an album. The live show is where Hip songs truly breathe and let loose, and for me that will be the ultimate test with these new songs. And after already hearing three of them live (Rink, Fly, the Drop-Off), let me tell ya that these songs will definitely stand the test of time. Glossy production or not, I think this is the best record they've done since Phantom Power.

I don't doubt that some of these songs will stand up live - hell, I was in the Commodore when they brought out the three you mention and thought they were tremendous. Like I said, they're great songs, many of 'em...just buried under tasteless bombast that doesn't suit them (I'll agree that "Yer Not the Ocean' comes out all right, though). I hate bombastic, overblown music, yet it seems to be reliably popular. Just look at Celine Dion or U2's last misbegotten album, hailed as a 'return to form' despite its deplorable lack of taste.

Just to be clear, too, I'm not saying that the Hip should always make 'intimate campfire' records. It depends on the material. Put it this way: on this album, Fiddler's Green or Wheat Kings would have become multi-tracked and overblown, probably with lots of electric guitars and processed vocals, etc.. No thanks.

Anyway, at least I didn't get the flaming I expected for saying this :lol:

I find it interesting to think that almost everyone was up in arms when Bob Rock first being mentioned. And yet, almost everyone again has come to terms with it and for the most part, the album has been a pleasant surprise.

There are still those who think that any World Container shortcomings lay in the bloody hands of Bob Rock. How it could have been so much better had he not been involved.

Then you listen to Gordie himself go on about how wonderful and inspiring it was to work with this man. How he owes much thanks to him and is expressing his gratitude. Even going as far as to add such a genuine, submissive verse on the inside-back cover of the liner notes for Bob himself.


I don't see how what Gord and the band think of as so wonderful can be so wrong. It's just strange.

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:Put it this way: on this album, Fiddler's Green or Wheat Kings would have become multi-tracked and overblown, probably with lots of electric guitars and processed vocals, etc.. No thanks.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Who knows what could have been...

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:I don't doubt that some of these songs will stand up live - hell, I was in the Commodore when they brought out the three you mention and thought they were tremendous. Like I said, they're great songs, many of 'em...just buried under tasteless bombast that doesn't suit them (I'll agree that "Yer Not the Ocean' comes out all right, though). I hate bombastic, overblown music, yet it seems to be reliably popular. Just look at Celine Dion or U2's last misbegotten album, hailed as a 'return to form' despite its deplorable lack of taste.

Just to be clear, too, I'm not saying that the Hip should always make 'intimate campfire' records. It depends on the material. Put it this way: on this album, Fiddler's Green or Wheat Kings would have become multi-tracked and overblown, probably with lots of electric guitars and processed vocals, etc.. No thanks.

Anyway, at least I didn't get the flaming I expected for saying this :lol:

Of course not, because you're review was a zillion times better than the one at dose.ca. You made it clear that there was too much production and the songs were bombastic and overblown, which is a valid point. I mean, this production has never been used on the Hip before, not to this extent. There's nothing that you say that is really untrue as far as the makeup of the songs. I, like direwolf74 and many others, just happen to love the record even though it is a Bob Rock produced effort. I tend to agree with you for the most part that "less is more" or "the more you think, the more you stink (David Briggs)" as far as production but for whatever reason, I can get past that on WC. I embrace the big wall of sound that has been constructed. It's a very powerful record to me. I would have liked it even if it was stripped down more also because, as you said, the songs are terrific.

Another thought I have is that some fans will not like this new album because it is a little more, dare I say, listenable to the casual or non-fans. I'm sure there will be a lot of Hip fans who use the word "sold out" and say that they just want to sell more records. To some people, they hope The Hip DON'T sell too many records. I'm positive there are more than a few Hip fans who are WORRIED that WC might actually sell very well and that will dent their credibility in some way.

As for Wheat Kings, I find the album version as it is to be a bit overblown

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:Fact is, I completely disagree with the treatment accorded to most of these songs........Over and over, I find myself wishing that this were a Gord Downie solo CD - allowing these lovely songs to breathe, and to be performed in the genuine, relaxed, open, and low-key way that would have suited them best.

Obviously, you and Gord Downie are faced with a huge difference of opinion, unfortunately (or fortunately) he's the songwriter.

tigerthelion Wrote:Another thought I have is that some fans will not like this new album because it is a little more, dare I say, listenable to the casual or non-fans. I'm sure there will be a lot of Hip fans who use the word "sold out" and say that they just want to sell more records. To some people, they hope The Hip DON'T sell too many records. I'm positive there are more than a few Hip fans who are WORRIED that WC might actually sell very well and that will dent their credibility in some way.

As for Wheat Kings, I find the album version as it is to be a bit overblown

:lol:

For the record, I'm not one to scream 'sell-out' every time a band does something popular. Indeed, I agree with Bono - great bands should want to have success, so that great music fills the air, instead of making a virtue out of being some secret cult thing. (Imagine if the beatles had thought this way?) My point is just that this record ruins a bunch of great songs, period.

Killer Whale Tank Wrote:

tigerthelion Wrote:Another thought I have is that some fans will not like this new album because it is a little more, dare I say, listenable to the casual or non-fans. I'm sure there will be a lot of Hip fans who use the word "sold out" and say that they just want to sell more records. To some people, they hope The Hip DON'T sell too many records. I'm positive there are more than a few Hip fans who are WORRIED that WC might actually sell very well and that will dent their credibility in some way.

As for Wheat Kings, I find the album version as it is to be a bit overblown

:lol:

For the record, I'm not one to scream 'sell-out' every time a band does something popular. Indeed, I agree with Bono - great bands should want to have success, so that great music fills the air, instead of making a virtue out of being some secret cult thing. (Imagine if the beatles had thought this way?) My point is just that this record ruins a bunch of great songs, period.

I know exactly what you are saying and I would normally agree that the production was too big but I LOVE THIS RECORD. For example, I like "All That You Can't Leave Behind" by U2 but I hate the production. With better production on that, I would LOVE that cd.

Bosman Wrote:There are still those who think that any World Container shortcomings lay in the bloody hands of Bob Rock. How it could have been so much better had he not been involved.

Well, having relentlessly mocked the whole "Bob Rock is the antichrist" thing for months, I'm now saying it would have been better had he not been involved, the song "World Container" being the poster child for that assertion.

Responsibility for production lies with the guy having the "producer" credit, which happens to be Bob Rock. I'd also like to introduce into evidence Exhibit A, Bob Rock's own blog post in which he takes full responsibility for that debacle:

I thought it would sound better under 18 layers of shit Wrote:"The song,"World Container", probably, has the most production. It is a song that, really, could be just an acoustic guitar track and a vocal. I thought it could be something much bigger sounding."

Pardon me if I'm not impressed by Gord's gushing over the joy of working with Bob Rock. The proof is in the pudding, and if artists were the best judges of their own work, bad albums would never be made. It may be a shocking thing to say here on the Hipbase, but Gord Downie isn't infallible.

For those of us who don't like the production on this album, it seems reasonable to lay the blame on, oh, I don't fucking know ... let me think ... the producer?