PunBB

ViloetlightHeron, making a biased, although fair and prudent observation, Wrote:women would try too hard to get that perfectly shaped body and augment their bodies for purely cosmetic reasons spend a little too much time working their abs and not their neurons.

But Sam, a seemingly bright, straightforward, and, in her own words, 'attractive' new member, finding herself inclined to defend the rampant preoccupation with physical beauty amongst others of her sex, Wrote:I'm going out on a limb here, but it's just possible that women pursue physical beauty over intellectual development because mainstream society reinforces the idea that beauty is more desirable, and therefore more necessary, than intellect.

.....a rationalization which Jenna, an established Hipbaser who has furnished enough visual evidence to support the claim that she, herself, is rather 'easy on the eyes', could applaud as she Wrote:That's a lovely limb. *swoon*

You know, I think it is society that should bear culpability for today's prevelent neglect of intellectual persuit in lieu of sheer vanity.

I mean, how can we possibly expect mere trifles like parental involvement, sense of family, strong self-image, positive goal orientation, and sound moral value to ever thwart the social Juggernaut of Influence that is MTV's The Real World, Cosmoploitan magazine and Bratz dolls? It's hopeless. Women cannot be responsible for their own choices so long as the Society, The Great Puppeteer is feeding the Image Machine.

And while I'm at it, I'm going to use this opportunity to blame Society for all my personal neglects, too.

My alcohol binging? Chalk it up to all the marketing and advertisement so pervasive in society. My penchant for gambling? Yep, Society. Everybody's coaxing me to gamble at their sponsored events these days. My sex addiction? Oh, that's all the media's fault, too - I can't be responsible for that weakness, either. "Sorry officer, I can't be given a ticket for speeding - I couldn't find a car that maxes out at 55 mph". Oh, how mom & dad would be so proud if I used my skills to become a novelist or columnist or doctor or scientist or something, but society so glorifies pop icons and professional athletes that I became convinced that I was to be a nothing unless I became a kickass guitarist or baseball player.

Goddamn society. You bastard. :rambo:

I thought Sam was male...

Either way, I'm in favour of blaming society for all sorts of things. It's the easy way out, and, in my opinion, taking the easy way out and blaming society is a primary cause behind so many issues that plague society today. So few people are prepared to take ownership of their lives!

chris Wrote:I thought Sam was male...

Either way, I'm in favour of blaming society for all sorts of things. It's the easy way out, and, in my opinion, taking the easy way out and blaming society is a primary cause behind so many issues that plague society today. So few people are prepared to take ownership of their lives!

Absolutely agreed, Chris Chris. However, I do believe Sam is female. What I am agreeing to is that there is a trend to blame society for all problems. It's really a cop out in most circumstances. As you say, it's a way for people to dodge responsibility for problems they have. But, why do people do this? I blame society.

The Horrible Esthete Wrote:I mean, how can we possibly expect mere trifles like parental involvement, sense of family, strong self-image, positive goal orientation, and sound moral value to ever thwart the social Juggernaut of Influence that is MTV's The Real World, Cosmoploitan magazine and Bratz dolls? It's hopeless. Women cannot be responsible for their own choices so long as the Society, The Great Puppeteer is feeding the Image Machine.

You misunderstand me - perhaps I wasn't clear - I don't blame society for women's individual choices. After all, what is "society" except the collective consciousness of our age? Woman are as involved in creating that consciousness as men and therefore equally culpable in the outcome. Well. Except for Bratz dolls and MTV's The Real World. They are the work of the devil.

I think women (and men) take external cues from a number of sources and make their decisions based on what they perceive as being the best/easiest/most valuable goal. That decision making process is affected by a number of factors and I have no idea why an individual woman would make the choice to focus on their appearance to the exclusion of their self-actualization.

On the other hand, what successful women are regularly presented to us as role models? I'm talking in the mass media, that is. Certainly a girl can look up to her teachers, local businesswomen, mother, etc. And naturally, some of the choose to do that. Most of them choose to attract boys though (it's a heterosexual thing) so they pick role models along the lines of Lindsay, Elisha and Alyssa. If you need visual presentations, I think there's a thread around here somewhere... I'm not that easily influenced, but I have the benefit of a good self-image and a general elitist disdain for pop culture. Both have served me well. But what about people not blessed with my ego and snobbery?

Ultimately, each individual is responsible for the choices they make. However, we all bring different tools to the tool bench, yeah? Some people are more easily influenced or swayed than others. I don't expect a 14 yr girl to make the same choices as a 35 yr old woman. I don't expect a person with an IQ of 85 to make the same choices as a person with an IQ of 130. (Or, atleast I don't expect them to make the same choices for the same reasons.)

As for your alcohol, gambling and sex addictions, Esthete - as a member of society, I'm sorry for my part in your downward spiral. Better luck making your choices next time.

Quote:But Sam, a seemingly bright, straightforward, and, in her own words, 'attractive' new member...

Esthete - It's almost like you know me! (Although, you got the sarcasm, right? I wouldn't presume to tell people I'm attractive. I mean, attractive to whom? Myself?)

Quote:I thought Sam was male...

Chris, on the other hand, doesn't know me at all!

Sam Wrote:

chris Wrote:I thought Sam was male...

Chris, on the other hand, doesn't know me at all!

Ah well... how well could you expect me to know you in just 5 days?

Give it time, and I'll figure it out! :thumb:

Oh, fer Gawd's sake, not the "society" thing....

Culture, people, is bigger than you. Culture is the aggregate of individual beliefs and attitudes. And we live in cultures.

You may choose to get drunk and punch someone, and in a legal sense, we will (and must) hold you responsible for that act. But your propensity to get drunk and punch someone is as much cultural as it is individual.

Esthete, you as much as conceded the point when you wrote this:
"I mean, how can we possibly expect mere trifles like parental involvement, sense of family, strong self-image, positive goal orientation, and sound moral value to ever thwart the social Juggernaut of Influence..."

All you're arguing there is that one cultural influence -- parents and family instilling values -- can outweigh another. Your upstanding young woman is simply acting on another set of cultural influences.

i cant believe this intense debate broke out in a thread about a certain part on a women, nuts i tell ya nuts

I can promise you, it was not 'nuts'

That is a whole different ball game (if you'll pardon my pun)

D

chancellor Wrote:i cant believe this intense debate broke out in a thread about a certain part on a women, nuts i tell ya nuts

i wanted to say the same thing... and 5 pages of it no less...

Sam Wrote:You misunderstand me - perhaps I wasn't clear - I don't blame society for women's individual choices. After all, what is "society" except the collective consciousness of our age? Woman are as involved in creating that consciousness as men and therefore equally culpable in the outcome.

I guess I did assume you were attempting to rationalize this behavior of aspiring to whatever values society at large might appear to reinforce instead of merely offering up an explanation, so I apologize for misconstruing.

Sam Wrote:what successful women are regularly presented to us as role models? I'm talking in the mass media, that is. Certainly a girl can look up to her teachers, local businesswomen, mother, etc. And naturally, some of the choose to do that. I'm not that easily influenced, but I have the benefit of a good self-image and a general elitist disdain for pop culture. Both have served me well. But what about people not blessed with my ego and snobbery?

I don't think there's any argument that the most influential role models - those with the greatest lasting effects - are those individuals with who we have a direct, ongoing relationship which, by default, would be our parents, mentors, and / or guardians. The impact made by role models such as these ought to all but eliminate the need for "public" role models. For too many of us, our comprehensive "view" of society is a mere image painted by the electronic and print media, and it can't accepted without question or adopted without scrutiny. Conversely, the images we uncover in our own firsthand experiences (e.g. community involvement and personal relationships, etc.) can paint a much different picture than what is pandered by extraneous entities. We must actively steer our youth towards these positive influences; we must guide them, discuss with them, provide for them, and involve them, or else they will inevitably imbibe the values of those who do not have their best interests (core values and overall virtue) in mind.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

skippy the wonder dog Wrote:Oh, fer Gawd's sake, not the "society" thing....Culture, people, is bigger than you. Culture is the aggregate of individual beliefs and attitudes. And we live in cultures. You may choose to get drunk and punch someone, and in a legal sense, we will (and must) hold you responsible for that act. But your propensity to get drunk and punch someone is as much cultural as it is individual. Esthete, you as much as conceded the point when you wrote this:

"I mean, how can we possibly expect mere trifles like parental involvement, sense of family, strong self-image, positive goal orientation, and sound moral value to ever thwart the social Juggernaut of Influence..."

All you're arguing there is that one cultural influence -- parents and family instilling values -- can outweigh another. Your upstanding young woman is simply acting on another set of cultural influences.

Perhaps I'm daft, but I'm not really understanding what your gist is here. Our culture is indeed an aggregate of individual values. But wouldn't you agree that, relatively speaking, some values are more "virtuous" than others? My argument would be that the mailgn influences prevalent in a culture might draw any individual away from virtue -- the fact that it is often a struggle to successfully resist these influences does not excuse a failing to do so. It's my argument that as sentient, discretionary, civilized beings, it is our obligation to identify virtuous attitudes and behaviors, strive to embrace them for ourselves, and and direct our youth to embrace them too.

While it isn't the "fault" of an individual for failing to develop good morals and virtues an values on his own, it stands to objective reason that a parent or guardian shirked some responsibility to those ends somewhere along the way. Whatever the case, it certainly isn't society that is responsible for his evils and vices - those develop according to natural law.

Maybe you didn't catch the sarcasm / facetiousness of my "blame society" post...my only contention is that if we do not instill specific attitudes and behaviors in our youth, whatever they develop on their own in our culture will be less than ideal in terms of virue, simply because our animal instincts will lead us that way.