PunBB

FighterAndLover Wrote:My only point was to show that homosexuality is a sin (no, no worse than wishing ill things on people, disobeying parents, etc. etc.) and whether we believe in a higher being or not, I think everyone must agree that they sin, or "wrong" others.

Come on man, do you expect anyone to agree to that statement on this forum? Of course in your position homosexuality is a sin, nobody is debating that. Sure, some may mock your beliefs, others will willfully join you in repenting the un-holy 'infected' souls that walk through the streets of your democracy. But I find it tough to digest the last part of the above quote.

FighterAndLover Wrote:I think everyone must agree that they sin, or "wrong" others.

Ridiculous really; please put up a debate on how homosexuals sin, wrong 'me', or the 'state', or anybody, really, but yourself and the millions who follow your beliefs. I guess individuals who do not strongly follow any religious beliefs are hindered with a more open mind on such topics, but If I were given an opportunity to join such an institution and be granted access to 'heaven' with the big guy, or live my life with an open mind while drinking my beers, respecting peoples rights, and laughing off such 'opportunity' while gracefully (or ignorantly, as you may so choose to classify me) understanding that such a place probably doesn't exist, I'll take the latter. Wait, what am I saying... I've already been given that opportunity, and I've made a choice... I choose a more liberated life free of impounding rules that are forced upon us by a mysterious being that lives in the sky.

And if

FighterAndLover Wrote:Christians want to spread so that they are a majority, so that they are not alone, and so that they don't feel dumb for their beliefs. This is not true, Christians evangelize because they want other people to have what we have.

, so be it, but if that is the case then there is certainly nothing wrong with gay people projecting the same message through a different medium, i.e. Democracy, and getting what THEY want...

I certainly don’t intend to offend anyone but I’m compelled to inject some facts (and a few observations) into this discussion. So, here they are, in no particular order:

The original text of the bible was written in Aramaic. In that language, the word “sin” meant “to miss the mark”. In simpler terms, to fall short of a goal. The intended message was that all of us, fall short of “the mark”, and we should endeavor to persevere; to live without “sin”; to hit the mark.

Each of us must discover and understand the meaning of “the mark”; it isn’t something I can explain to you, make you understand, or achieve. I could share the wisdom that was once shared with me, but you have to get there on your own. Based upon what I’ve read in this thread (and in this forum in general), some of you may be there and not even realize it, some of you may be closer than they think.

Jesus spoke in the language of parables. His stories were not literal, and were not intended to be taken literally. Everything Jesus taught was intended to illustrate morality and ethics. Not the morality of killing homosexuals as allegedly commanded by god in Leviticus 20:13, but the morality of treating others as you’d like to be treated, turning the other cheek, the importance of truth, respecting your parents, etc.

In the language of parables, nothing is literal. One of Jesus’ prevalent teachings was the importance of truth, as in “You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32, in case anyone thinks I’m simply spewing rhetoric.) In the language of parables, “water” is symbolic of “truth”. So when Jesus talked of “walking on water”, did it mean that he literally walked on water, or that with every footstep, he walked a life of truth? Believe what you will.

Don’t mistake my meaning, I’m not dissin’ Jesus in any way; he was one of the coolest dudes that ever lived. Unfortunately, he was also one of the most misunderstood.

The problem that most people have with modern organized religion (besides its intrusion into secular politics) is that the precepts and doctrines are only selectively or loosely applied by most practitioners to favor their own ends. The extreme practitioners are too busy trying to prevent legal civil unions of homosexuals to remember they should be turning the other cheek and loving them as brothers and sisters. I won’t even go into the symbolic cannibalism thing. According to the manual, if you love, you’re born of god and if you don’t love, you don’t know god.

Whatever your belief system, it’s yours , you have the right to believe it, and I admire anyone who has conviction and strong beliefs, even if they don’t gel with what I know to be real. I spent many, many years attending church, studying the bible, and worshiping god. I got where I’m at through deep understanding and spiritual enlightenment.

For what it's worth, I highly recommend the writings of Dr. Maurice Nicoll, specifically, “The New Man” and “The Mark”. They’re both well worth the effort and expense.

Peace to everyone! :thumb:

~Scott

gays shouldnt be marrying, or even fucking in the first place.


FUCK ALL OF YOU FAGGOTS!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA






















































Lesbians are cool tho. 8)

scottitude Wrote:I certainly don’t intend to offend anyone but I’m compelled to inject some facts (and a few observations) into this discussion. So, here they are, in no particular order:

The original text of the bible was written in Aramaic. In that language, the word “sin” meant “to miss the mark”. In simpler terms, to fall short of a goal. The intended message was that all of us, fall short of “the mark”, and we should endeavor to persevere; to live without “sin”; to hit the mark.

Each of us must discover and understand the meaning of “the mark”; it isn’t something I can explain to you, make you understand, or achieve. I could share the wisdom that was once shared with me, but you have to get there on your own. Based upon what I’ve read in this thread (and in this forum in general), some of you may be there and not even realize it, some of you may be closer than they think.

Jesus spoke in the language of parables. His stories were not literal, and were not intended to be taken literally. Everything Jesus taught was intended to illustrate morality and ethics. Not the morality of killing homosexuals as allegedly commanded by god in Leviticus 20:13, but the morality of treating others as you’d like to be treated, turning the other cheek, the importance of truth, respecting your parents, etc.

In the language of parables, nothing is literal. One of Jesus’ prevalent teachings was the importance of truth, as in “You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32, in case anyone thinks I’m simply spewing rhetoric.) In the language of parables, “water” is symbolic of “truth”. So when Jesus talked of “walking on water”, did it mean that he literally walked on water, or that with every footstep, he walked a life of truth? Believe what you will.

Don’t mistake my meaning, I’m not dissin’ Jesus in any way; he was one of the coolest dudes that ever lived. Unfortunately, he was also one of the most misunderstood.

The problem that most people have with modern organized religion (besides its intrusion into secular politics) is that the precepts and doctrines are only selectively or loosely applied by most practitioners to favor their own ends. The extreme practitioners are too busy trying to prevent legal civil unions of homosexuals to remember they should be turning the other cheek and loving them as brothers and sisters. I won’t even go into the symbolic cannibalism thing. According to the manual, if you love, you’re born of god and if you don’t love, you don’t know god.

Whatever your belief system, it’s yours , you have the right to believe it, and I admire anyone who has conviction and strong beliefs, even if they don’t gel with what I know to be real. I spent many, many years attending church, studying the bible, and worshiping god. I got where I’m at through deep understanding and spiritual enlightenment.

For what it's worth, I highly recommend the writings of Dr. Maurice Nicoll, specifically, “The New Man” and “The Mark”. They’re both well worth the effort and expense.

Peace to everyone! :thumb:

~Scott

skippy the wonder dog Wrote:Really? How so? Who, specifically, do they harm? I think you'll discover that with the exception of outright homophobes, and those who cloak homophobia with religion, very few people will agree that homosexuals harm anyone by their behavior.

I wasn't saying that homosexuals in specific "wrong others", but that WE ALL have to admit we sin, or "wrong others"

Sk1n_W4lk3r Wrote:gays shouldnt be marrying, or even fucking in the first place.


f**k ALL OF YOU FAGGOTS!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Lesbians are cool tho. 8)

What makes lesbians so wonderful in your homophobic opinion? Let me guess...the ultimate fantasy? I cannot even begin to remark on your ignorance and arrogance to show up on this board and make such a comment.

-Jenna

Well, whadayaknow...I finally found a legitimate opportunity to use the "ignore" function...it works like a charm! :thumb:

FighterAndLover Wrote:I wasn't saying that homosexuals in specific "wrong others", but that WE ALL have to admit we sin, or "wrong others"

Okay ... where does that leave you? You're still asserting that homosexuals wrong others, because you're still asserting that homosexuality is a sin. Which means you still have to deal with that question, or you have to redefine "sin."

I'm a-thinkin', while we're all admitting that we're sinners, that we might focus on taking the redwood planks out of our own eyes ... whaddaya say?

skippy the wonder dog Wrote:Okay ... where does that leave you? You're still asserting that homosexuals wrong others, because you're still asserting that homosexuality is a sin. Which means you still have to deal with that question, or you have to redefine "sin."

I'm a-thinkin', while we're all admitting that we're sinners, that we might focus on taking the redwood planks out of our own eyes ... whaddaya say?

Nay, wronging others was an example of sin, to prove to people that we all sin (I think it's pretty evident to everyone that we all wrong others in one way or the other) I wasn't saying every single sin wrongs others. I.E. it's preposterous to say that an adulterer has wronged any singular person with the exception of his/herself.

This is ridiculous, I have to clarify everything I type, I'm put under a microscope because I differ in opinion

FighterAndLover Wrote:...This is ridiculous, I have to clarify everything I type, I'm put under a microscope because I differ in opinion

Ya know, Seth, it is kinda ridiculous. You're entitled to your opinion and Skippy's entitled to his, regardless of how well either of you can articulate your points.

I know it's hard because it's a deeply personal issue to you (and it seems like it is to Skippy, too) but disagreements are going to happen from time to time, regardless of the subject matter, or the people involved.

Sometimes disagreements can't be resolved no matter how right we feel or how hard we argue.

I think realizing that, is in itself, a resolution of sorts.

Now, crawl out from under that damned microscope...you're all magnified an' shit an' it's freakinmeout maaaaannn...

scottitude Wrote:

FighterAndLover Wrote:...This is ridiculous, I have to clarify everything I type, I'm put under a microscope because I differ in opinion

Ya know, Seth, it is kinda ridiculous. You're entitled to your opinion and Skippy's entitled to his, regardless of how well either of you can articulate your points.

I know it's hard because it's a deeply personal issue to you (and it seems like it is to Skippy, too) but disagreements are going to happen from time to time, regardless of the subject matter, or the people involved.

Sometimes disagreements can't be resolved no matter how right we feel or how hard we argue.

I think realizing that, is in itself, a resolution of sorts.

Now, crawl out from under that damned microscope...you're all magnified an' shit an' it's freakinmeout maaaaannn...

thanks scott- also, you are still the man for those pictures

and yes, you are freaking out....man! (mayan, mayan, mayan)

someone should add super troopers to that movie page

Actually, I don't give a crap about gay marriage one way or the other, except that I can't see a reason to oppose it.

All I want is for ol' FighterandLover to clarify why he sees it as a sin. But rather than answer the question straight, he prefers to endlessly clarify what he means, until we get to the point where apparently he doesn't mean anything anymore.

If you whine about "anti-christian filth" and then proceed to equate homosexuality with mental illness, well....

FighterAndLover Wrote:As for the mockery from grooveless, well you can scoff if you want, but your laughter at me for my beliefs is no worse than someone making a gay joke about the other guy's gay brother, so just know that...

I've debated this stuff enough to know there's no point in an endless back-and-forth . Dedicated religious people try my patience because, unlike reasonable and rational people, they steadfastly refuse to allow their views to evolve over time. Part of the human experience is thinking you know something and finding out you're wrong. I've been wrong about lots of things. When I was 15 I wrote a paper on how the American electoral model was better than ours. Now, as I become more aware of the situation, I have changed my views because of new information. Religious people have no such capacity for reason, and your inability to recognize homosexuals as an important element in the natural world will remain a prejudice, no doubt, until the day you die. Just to be clear, although I find your views misguided and your religion manmade, I view religion as a necessary part of the human evolution, people striving to find purpose in life, and I support the morals most religions teach (other than radical fundamentalism). I therefore have no problem with you. I just choose not to debate the point any further because once we've made our views known, there's nothing more to say. Unlike politics, there are no shades of grey here.

All I can say is, if God made us in His own image...I sure hope He's in rehab somewhere.

grooveless touque Wrote:All I can say is, if God made us in His own image...I sure hope He's in rehab somewhere.

...and wearing a faded-out ten year old Canadian Tour Hip-shirt! :thumb:

skippy the wonder dog Wrote:Actually, I don't give a crap about gay marriage one way or the other, except that I can't see a reason to oppose it.

All I want is for ol' FighterandLover to clarify why he sees it as a sin. But rather than answer the question straight, he prefers to endlessly clarify what he means, until we get to the point where apparently he doesn't mean anything anymore.

If you whine about "anti-christian filth" and then proceed to equate homosexuality with mental illness, well....

Well first allow me to retork to my "whining about anti-christian filth". (Note duly, this "whining" consisted of a mere mention in one post, I believe in response showing how most groups are discriminated against, not just homosexuals) but if you must constantly bring it up, let me enlighten you to my meanings:
Christian discrimination is manifested in many ways. It is manifested in lousy one-liners like "I wasn't aware you were so important to the Divine plan". It is manifested in the term "Jesus-freak". It is manifested when an odd mixture of Christians assembled in front of a flagpole for prayer are pointed at, mocked, and once even mooned. That is the anti-christian filth that I apparently whine about.

Now, since this wondrous hund has openly asked a straightforward question (when did you ask me "the question straight"?) I will answer.

I have done my research as pertaining to Bible passages considering homosexuality as a sin, and here's what I found:

1. 1 Corinthians 6:9: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders (bold just for you, skip) ...(list continues) will inherit the kingdom of God." The passage goes on to show that they may inherit the kingdom of God if they give up/repent for these things.

2. Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable..." 24:"Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled." God mentions that he has purged the earth of nations that have become infested with homosexuals (as well as other wicked things)
"What nations?" you inquire.
Glad you asked...

3. Genesis chapter 19 explains this nation, "Sodom and Gemorrah Destroyed." Due to length, I will paraphrase: The men of the town banged on Lot's (a very holy man) door, and asked for the two men (angels) they had seen go into his house "to have sex with them." Long story short, the angels told Lot to grab his family/friends and skedaddle, as they were going to destroy the city.

4. One final verse I found, considering God's punishment of homosexuality was Romans 1:26: "Because of this[disobedience to God], God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way, the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men commited indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

And that is why I see homosexuality as a sin; no more damnable than any other sin, but a sin nontheless and therefore must be repented.