skippy the wonder dog Wrote:Esthete: in other words, you acknowledge that there is a sound rationale for not voting.
I think we had this discussion precisely four years ago. 
tommygunn: nice sentiment, but do you know what it costs to run for office? Not really a viable option if you don't like the choices.
I believe the cost to run for Mayor of Toronto is only $100 - refunded if you secure a certain percentage of the votes.
The cost to compete is a whole different story...
Fair enough.
How about this:
If one is so lazy, apathetic, or uneducated that he will not or cannot ascertain which candidate better represents his interests (or which candidate is less apt to operate counter to his interests), then he should not cast a vote.
My apologies to Tiger.
chris Wrote:I believe the cost to run for Mayor of Toronto is only $100 - refunded if you secure a certain percentage of the votes.
The cost to compete is a whole different story...
When Diane Haskett ran for Mayor in London, the cost of her campaign was over $90,000.
Not really an option for most of us. Politics is a game for the rich or well-connected -- usually, both.
And Esthete, you may feel that we'd have to be lazy, apathetic, etc. to look at politics and see six of one and half a dozen of the other, but from another point of view someone like you looks a lot like a mindless dupe, voting for things that aren't in his best interests just to stave off other things that aren't in his best interests. Take yer pick.
tigerthelion Wrote:Mccain and Obama don't deserve a single vote as far as I'm concerned.
I wouldn't vote for any of them. It's time for people to stop voting for the "lesser of two (or more) evils" in elections. I get a good laugh at all the skank celebs getting on television and saying, "VOTE OR DIE" or whatever the hell those jackasses go on with, trying to scare people into voting or something. 
cratch: A non-vote is every bit as important as a vote. A non-vote is a message that none of the morons are fit to serve, and I wish the media would stop spreading the message that not voting is a bad thing. Not voting is every bit as much a part of the democratic process as voting for someone. You should only vote for someone you believe in, shouldn't you? That makes sense to me.
Not showing up to voice your opinion at the voting booth, whatever it may be, does nothing to improve the democratic process because there is no way to quantify the number of people dissatisfied with the political process. If people who didn't like the way the political process works or the candidates, they could simply cast a write in vote for None of the Above; hell you could create a protest movement around the concept and have some chance of influencing the political process or getting people to notice.
If we sat around and waited for the candidate that perfectly suited our needs, beliefs and wants, we might as well sit around and waiting for the Second Coming of Christ :roll:
skippy the wonder dog Wrote:chris Wrote:And Esthete, you may feel that we'd have to be lazy, apathetic, etc. to look at politics and see six of one and half a dozen of the other, but from another point of view someone like you looks a lot like a mindless dupe, voting for things that aren't in his best interests just to stave off other things that aren't in his best interests. Take yer pick.
Ya know, your arguement sounds alot like the arguement of a certain American "bitter" presidential candidate that basically boils down to the belief that you know what is better for me than I do. People can argue till they are blue in the face about whether blue-collar citizens vote against their political or economic interests, but in the end it all comes down to what their inner thought process tells them how they should vote. Telling people that you know their own interests better than they do is really condescending.
skippy the wonder dog Wrote:tommygunn: nice sentiment, but do you know what it costs to run for office? Not really a viable option if you don't like the choices.
My point is, if you don't like the current political climate and you're abstaining from voting, then do something to change it.. get involved somehow (and by involved I don't mean just by posting/whining about it on some band's fansite). :twisted:
skippy the wonder dog Wrote:And Esthete, you may feel that we'd have to be lazy, apathetic, etc. to look at politics and see six of one and half a dozen of the other, from another point of view someone like you looks a lot like a mindless dupe, voting for things that aren't in his best interests just to stave off other things that aren't in his best interests.
If someone wants to think I'm a mindless dupe because I've prioritized "my interests" then he can go right ahead; I don't give a ****.
Notice I'm not sitting here trying to criticize
how others have prioritized their interests.
If anyone puts any effort whatsoever into evaluating Obama and McCain's records, histories, and platforms, and afterward truly has
no feeling as to which candidate better represents his interests and beliefs, then I'd argue that the person doesn't really have a firm grasp of what his interests and beliefs are.
VioletlightHeron Wrote:Telling people that you know their own interests better than they do is really condescending.
Where did I say that? I didn't say that at all.
I simply pointed out that there is another perspective. Or are you telling me that there is only one valid perspective on politics, and it happens to be yours?
That's what Esthete's saying -- anyone who doesn't share his perspective is lazy or ignorant, and doesn't know his own interests -- but I don't see you taking him to task for being condescending.
tommygunn Wrote:skippy the wonder dog Wrote:tommygunn: nice sentiment, but do you know what it costs to run for office? Not really a viable option if you don't like the choices.
My point is, if you don't like the current political climate and you're abstaining from voting, then do something to change it.. get involved somehow (and by involved I don't mean just by posting/whining about it on some band's fansite). :twisted:
Except that I'm not whining about it, I'm simply pointing out that there may be, from time to time, a valid rationale for not voting. And I'm sorry to tell you, but "getting involved" doesn't change that. If someone perceives that none of the options really represent his interests, then he can't simply join a political party and somehow force their platform to change. If you believe that, you're pretty fucking naive about politics.
What you all seem to be struggling with is that I haven't said I
wouldn't vote in
this election, if I were eligible. I've only said that, if someone doesn't see a candidate that makes sense, abstaining is a
valid option.
In fact, abstaining is a democratic right, which naturally proceeds from freedom of expression. It is not, despite the half-witted rantings of undereducated pundits, your democratic duty to vote. It's your democratic duty to
inform yourself -- voting is not a substitute.
skippy the wonder dog Wrote:tommygunn Wrote:skippy the wonder dog Wrote:tommygunn: nice sentiment, but do you know what it costs to run for office? Not really a viable option if you don't like the choices.
My point is, if you don't like the current political climate and you're abstaining from voting, then do something to change it.. get involved somehow (and by involved I don't mean just by posting/whining about it on some band's fansite). :twisted:
Except that I'm not whining about it, I'm simply pointing out that there may be, from time to time, a valid rationale for not voting.
The whining comment wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the original poster who brought it up and whose majority of posts are of the whining variety (be it concerning hockey, baseball, celebrities, politics, or what have you), yet never seems to do anything about it. He just seems content in continually whining (on a band fansite of all places).. :roll:
EDIT: re-reading the above.. that description fits a few people on this site.. so I can see why some would get defensive. :lol:
skippy the wonder dog Wrote:And I'm sorry to tell you, but "getting involved" doesn't change that. If someone perceives that none of the options really represent his interests, then he can't simply join a political party and somehow force their platform to change. If you believe that, you're pretty fucking naive about politics.
Who said anything about joining a political party? If you think that's the only way to bring about change, then you're the "pretty fucking naive" one. Joining a party is one way, but not the only way.. use your imagination. :thumb:
Why do I bother posting on threads like this... :nooooo
Hey Tommy, you post because you care.
Check out Lt. Ehren Watada. (you can start @9.17) He is an American hero and a champion of Democracy who has stood up and done his duty. I have marched in support of him. I have shook his hand and I would lay down my life with him in defense of Democracy. You care and speak out because others have died and killed in defense of your right to speak out and vote. All those who don't participate in their Democracy are cowards and traitors.
Lt. Ehren Watada on Citizen Responsibility
[youtube]4cs4YUiQ-DI[/youtube]
tommygunn Wrote:Either vote or run for office yourself if you think you can do better.. :thumb:
Wow, that's a great answer. That's like something the almighty Jon Stewart would say. Wow, you completely changed my views. I'll get right on that. :?
NegPhil Wrote:Hey Tommy, you post because you care.
Check out Lt. Ehren Watada. (you can start @9.17) He is an American hero and a champion of Democracy who has stood up and done his duty. I have marched in support of him. I have shook his hand and I would lay down my life with him in defense of Democracy. You care and speak out because others have died and killed in defense of your right to speak out and vote. All those who don't participate in their Democracy are cowards and traitors.Lt. Ehren Watada on Citizen Responsibility
[youtube]4cs4YUiQ-DI[/youtube]
More bullshit propaganda. You sound like George W Bush. "You're either with us or you're against us." Great stuff. :rambo:
I applaud that man for standing up for his beliefs. However, he basically broke the law. How is not voting any worse than breaking the law? :?
NegPhil Wrote:Hey Tommy, you post because you care.
Check out Lt. Ehren Watada. (you can start @9.17) He is an American hero and a champion of Democracy who has stood up and done his duty. I have marched in support of him. I have shook his hand and I would lay down my life with him in defense of Democracy. You care and speak out because others have died and killed in defense of your right to speak out and vote. All those who don't participate in their Democracy are cowards and traitors.
Lt. Ehren Watada on Citizen Responsibility
[youtube]4cs4YUiQ-DI[/youtube]
You're right I do care. :thumb:
Thanks for the vid...
tigerthelion Wrote:tommygunn Wrote:Either vote or run for office yourself if you think you can do better.. :thumb:
Wow, that's a great answer. That's like something the almighty Jon Stewart would say. Wow, you completely changed my views. I'll get right on that. :?
No, you seem to be content in just whining and doing nothing but that.. as usual. :roll: